Predestinated = OSAS

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Please note, the branch that was withered was "cast forth" or cast away - was in the Vine - they were saved, did not bear fruit, they withered and were cut off - like a dead branch and burned = loss of salvation.

Well it wasn't my quote but I will give two cents anyways. What if I bear good fruit for ten years and then stop? Am I then lost the day I stop? What if I start again, or would that be impossible because that would be like being born-again-again? What if I bear fruit for say sixty years and then stop, and two days later die, will I then be sent to hell? Just how does a believer apply this to real life in your views? I know there are many days I fail to bear fruit. Am I lost those days? </font>[/QUOTE]Bearing fruit has to do with the state of the heart. When one is humbled, committed to the Lord they remain in the Vine. Fruit is exhibited by lifestyle and intent of the heart because the Holy Spirit is allowed to lead one's life fully, even when you have bad days it's the state of the heart.

When the desire to please God and love Him with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength is not foremost, the fruit will shrivel and die.

 

[steaver]

If Peter was not concerned that one could lose their salvation, he would not have said - make sure of your election - if one can fall from their election, they can lose their salvation.

"...make your calling and election sure..." is NOT..."keep your calling and election secure".

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son , that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

You were called, justified and glorified in Christ before the foundation of the world in the foreknowledge of God brother! You cannot fail!

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end , that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:9 God is faithful , by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord.

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us , and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

You see brother, it is just like you said in the other thread, all God's grace given you in Christ Jesus before the world began. You got it in your heart, you always rightly fall back on God's grace. You just need to let the Holy Spirit show you how to interpret those passages which seem to go against God's grace and God's predestination of those who answered the call.

God Bless!

 

[Ray Berrian]

Stever,

Good post because you explained the truth.

I lived in Martinsburg maybe twenty miles from Altoona years ago.

 

[steaver]

Stever,

Good post because you explained the truth.

I lived in Martinsburg maybe twenty miles from Altoona years ago.

Thanks for the plug of support Ray! I live about forty miles east of Altoona. I've only been through Martinsburg a couple of times.

God Bless!

 

[standingfirminChrist]

steaver,

Anywhere near Holtwood? I lived in Holtwood back in 73

 

[steaver]

steaver,

Anywhere near Holtwood? I lived in Holtwood back in 73

I never heard of Holtwood. From Altoona east you have Huntingdon (where I was born in the flesh) and then Mount Union and then McVeytown, where I was born of God by His Spirit after overhearing a Billy Graham TV special that my dad was watching back in 73 (back when we had about half a dozen channels to chose from and TV specials were a big attraction). I was playing with something out of the way while listening to the TV preacher. God called, pricked my heart, and I went to bed that night praying to receive forgiveness through the blood of Jesus Christ. God has taken it from there and has followed through on all His promisses to date. I am persuaded He is able to keep me to the end! HE is able! I would not make it without His consistant Grace...

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us , and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

from McVeytown you have Lewistown and from there you can take 322W to Penn State home of the Nittany Lions. McVeytown is about 40 minutes from State College. I still remain in McVeytown area where God called me, justified me, glorified me in Jesus Christ all before the foundation of the world! Praise Jesus! How can I "lose"?...Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Stevers,

You have never addressed the example I gave about my friend who now worships Tao. There ARE those who will believe and fall away. It is written. There are those who are destined from the foundation of the world to believe and remain faithful to the end.

Judas would be a good example of falling away - even those he was destined to be lost. He believed at first, but he was expecting Jesus to be a reigning conquering King that would overthrow the Romans. When he finally realized that Jesus was not here for that, satan entered his heart and he betrayed Him. That is also loss of salvation.

The parable of the Sower and the Vine passage, both refer to those who have believed and fell away or were cut off.

Some believers fall away because they have been given the opportunity to believe, but walked away and at judgment they will have no excuse.

Peter is simply saying - stay on the path, stay seeking God, because there are some who will fall away because their hearts grew cold towards God. It is a warning to fear God. Paul also warned of this. We are grafted in and can be cut off. Jesus said this to John - that one can be blotted out of the Lamb's book of life.

Yes, salvation is secure for those who love God with all their heart, soul, mind, and strength. It is a heart matter, which I have stated over an over again. But not every believer is "sold out" to God and they will and do drift away. I know of many, many people who have let their lives as believers grow into apathy and lethargy, allowing the cares and concerns of the this world draw them away.

I have also seen riches pull people down - just as Jesus said - it is harder for the rich to get into heaven than for a camel to go thru the eye of a needle. I believe that He was speaking of believers as well.

Even in Paul's ministry he speaks of those who fell away into deception and ship wrecked their faith, and those who were drawn away by seducing spirits.

There are also many verses and passages in the NT alone that speak of false teachers and prophets leading people astray. This means they will be lost. As Jesus said - they will prophesy in My Name and do other miracles and He will say, get away from Me, I know you not.

Loss of salvation is a message that is part of the Bible from Gen to Rev - many fell away because of unbelief.

 

[steaver]

elo...

You have never addressed the example I gave about my friend who now worships Tao. There ARE those who will believe and fall away. It is written. There are those who are destined from the foundation of the world to believe and remain faithful to the end.

Yes, I addressed the example of your friend. It was on the other thread "Saved, lost, saved again" page 11.

There are those who are destined from the foundation of the world to believe and remain faithful to the end.

elo, you are not making any sense. Ask yourself, who are those predestinated from the foundation of the world?

Better yet, read who Paul says is predestinated from the foundation of the world.

Why teach that you must remain faithful when you believe that those who do remain faithful do so because they were predestinated to remain faithful? The teaching would have no value!

By saying some born-again believers God has predestinated to remain faithful to the end and some born-again believers simply do not have this honor, is to say that God shows favortism. If you say no God does not play favortism and only ultimately saves those who by their own efforts stay faithful is to remove God's predestination before the foundation of the world, (before you could do anything good or bad). You cannot have it both ways.

Here it is once again...

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us , and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

It is a done deal concerning God's foreknowledge and now it plays out in real time all over the world and will continue to do so until every single soul God seen and chose in Christ Jesus before the foundation of the world is born of God in real time. Each of these will be justified, glorified and confirmed unto the end to the glory of Jesus Christ. We get no glory! We can't pat ourselves on the back and say "good job brother, glad you remained faithful". You will remain faithful because God has foreordained that it will be..." not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began "

I haven't seen you take a stab yet at all of the scripture I presented concerning predestinated. Read over it and see if you can interpret it any other way than what I have seen.

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

posted by steaver:

I haven't seen you take a stab yet at all of the scripture I presented concerning predestinated. Read over it and see if you can interpret it any other way than what I have seen.

There are 4 classes of believers per the Parable of the Sower - that is why you cannot see where I am coming from. there are some who will believe and fall away, there are some who are destined to remain faithful - the passages you quoted are for these believers - the ones bringing forth 30, 60, and a 100 fold. it is not a matter of favoritism, it is a matter of having no excuse.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

stever wrote:
I see an example of a religious man who never received the Spirit of Christ. There are thousands of these sitting in churches across America and the World.

eloidalmanutha:
sorry, I missed what you said from "saved, lost, saved" thread.

How can you judge him on one paragraph, when I spent months talking to him? I know he loved the Lord, his words, his expressions were of pure devotion and joy. We spent hours talking about the Lord and the Word.

But he started to question the Deity of Christ because of his associations with a religious group that slowly planted seeds of doubt and were watered by that continual influence - as proverbs says - bad company corrupts. that is when he snowballed right into deception and fell away. He has rebuked the Lord and cast Him aside. He will never come back - he lost his salvation. Tao is his god.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

let me reiterate one more time - salvation is a free gift - of the faith and grace of God - no one can get saved by doing any works, paying money, being good, nothing. The gift is free.

Acceptance of the gift then becomes the will of man - to seek, to love, to submit. that is the choice. if you choose not to, you will be lost. If you choose to give your will and your life to God, you will remain saved. it is a matter of the heart. This is why Jesus said that some branches will wither and be cut off - they were IN Him, but chose not to abide in Him.

 

[steaver]

elo...

There are 4 classes of believers per the Parable of the Sower - that is why you cannot see where I am coming from. there are some who will believe and fall away, there are some who are destined to remain faithful - the passages you quoted are for these believers - the ones bringing forth 30, 60, and a 100 fold.

You are very close to understanding. What you said here is true, but you need to understand, as we discussed before, that just because the bible says they "believed" it does not necessarily equate with "born-again" belief. Context must determine the interpretation.

Those who do not continue in Jesus' word never get to the rebirth. Those who get to the rebirth are destined to OSAS. What you are missing in your study is regeneration. Once one is regenerated they are a new creature in Christ and are of the predestinated group. "Believing" for awhile is not regeneration and it is not saved then lost!

it is not a matter of favoritism, it is a matter of having no excuse.

Correct, from man's perspective. From God's perspective... whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified . The lost/unregenerated no nothing about this. This info is for the born of God in Christ to understand their position is ALL GOD (OSAS) and He should be praised for it!

How can you judge him on one paragraph, when I spent months talking to him? I know he loved the Lord, his words, his expressions were of pure devotion and joy. We spent hours talking about the Lord and the Word.

But he started to question the Deity of Christ because of his associations with a religious group that slowly planted seeds of doubt and were watered by that continual influence - as proverbs says - bad company corrupts. that is when he snowballed right into deception and fell away. He has rebuked the Lord and cast Him aside. He will never come back - he lost his salvation. Tao is his god.

I can only judge by what the scripture declares. You judge the man is lost forever, what will you say if the man does one day return to Jesus as Lord? You also can not judge his inner man as God does. Will you then say he was never born of God in the first place and now has been, or will you say he was OSAS and has returned by God's Grace? Or what if one day you find the man in heaven? Only God can ultimately make the final decision on him, only God knows if he belongs to Christ through rebirth.

The thing is we cannot be 100% certain a person has been born of God or if they are just religious. 98-99% maybe, but God must make the final call. If it were me and it was my friend I would be praying for this man to be convicted by the Holy Ghost and return to the truth. I would not write him off as lost. I believe many True Christians can get themselves into all kinds of false teachings. If he is a child of God through regeneration then God will ultimately sanctify him wholly in Jesus Christ. It is written as so.

let me reiterate one more time - salvation is a free gift - of the faith and grace of God - no one can get saved by doing any works, paying money, being good, nothing. The gift is free.

You keep saying this and are right on! But then you get caught up in man must DO his part!

Acceptance of the gift then becomes the will of man - to seek, to love, to submit. that is the choice. if you choose not to, you will be lost. If you choose to give your will and your life to God, you will remain saved. it is a matter of the heart. This is why Jesus said that some branches will wither and be cut off - they were IN Him, but chose not to abide in Him.

Acceptance is of the will of man PERIOD! It is not to seek, to love, to submit-these things all come AFTER regeneration which is the will of GOD....Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God .

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son , that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified .
Rom 8:31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us ?

You were called, justified and glorified in Christ before the foundation of the world in the foreknowledge of God brother! You cannot fail!

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end , that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:9 God is faithful , by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord .

2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us , and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began ,

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

when someone believes on Jesus for salvation - they are instantly born of Spirit and Water - or born again/regenerated. the process of salvation does not end at that moment - it continues until one dies. that is the point that man is led by the Spirit to continue to strive to seek and love God.

one can harden their heart against the Holy Spirit - their conscience being seared - no longer contending for the faith.

there is a sin in which there is no forgiveness - blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. if my friend has denied the Deity of Jesus Christ, he has blasphemed the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:2,3 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


Let me ask you exactly when you think a person is regenerated? a minute after belief? 10 min? an hr? a day? a year? 10 years? how do you know when a person has been regenerated enough to be saved?

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

The verses that you keep quoting are for those who were predestined to become believers and will not lose their salvation.

There are believers who will fall away - that have been regenerated and born again. As Jesus said, they believed and then fell away - see above verse - 1 John 5:1

 

[BobRyan]

Originally posted by Matt Black:
It's fairly inevitable IMO that if one is a Calvinist, one also must believe in OSAS (it is the I and the P of TULIP after all) and be fully monergist in one's soteriology.

Not that I agree with any of the above, mind

; it's all a recent invention of that Dutch chappie - Beza - even Calvin didn't believe it and he was borrowing from the gloomier bits of Augustine.

I agree that Calvinists are the only ones with a theological basis for OSAS.

I would claim that 4 Point Calvinists are the ONLY ones that have a basis for BOTH OSAS AND assurance.

But of course - OSAS is error. The Matt 18 discussion on "forgiveness revoked" shows that beyond a doubt!

 

[steaver]

elo...

when someone believes on Jesus for salvation - they are instantly born of Spirit and Water - or born again/regenerated. the process of salvation does not end at that moment - it continues until one dies. that is the point that man is led by the Spirit to continue to strive to seek and love God.

You just cannot seem to grasp the trem "born". One does not keep on being born in the flesh (by water) each day of their lives. It is an EVENT, in an instant, and finished...on to maturity. Just the same when one is born of God, it is an EVENT, in an instant. One does not continue daily to be regenerated.

elo...

Let me ask you exactly when you think a person is regenerated? a minute after belief? 10 min? an hr? a day? a year? 10 years? how do you know when a person has been regenerated enough to be saved?

Since pentacost, the moment they call on the name of the Lord Jesus. "Regenerated enough", there is no such thing, either you are or are not.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him.

Excellent scripture for OSAS! John gives the attributes of those who are born of God. They love Him and also love all of those begotten of Him. It isn't a "should do" it is a "will do" because they have been born of God.

There are believers who will fall away - that have been regenerated and born again. As Jesus said, they believed and then fell away - see above verse - 1 John 5:1

1John 5:1 says they have been regenerated and then fell away

The verses that you keep quoting are for those who were predestined to become believers and will not lose their salvation.

Exactly!

Why can you say this but cannot understand it means OSAS? Are you taking the time to read the passages?

Think of a word "us". Keep this in mind and read. I will add some helps in brackets...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow[us], he also did predestinate[us] to be conformed to the image of his Son , that he might be the firstborn among many brethren[us].
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate[us], them[us] he also called: and whom he called[us], them[us] he also justified: and whom he justified[us], them[us] he also glorified .
Rom 8:31 What shall we[us] then say to these things? If God be for us , who can be against us ?

Elo, is the above passage speaking to you? Yes or No? If "no" why not? If "yes" then you will never lose your salvation brother!

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end , that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:9 God is faithful , by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord .

Is this speaking to you brother? Yes or No?

Brother Bob, you can answer as well. Is the above passages speaking to you or am I the only one here who thinks so?

God Bless!

 

[Athanasian Creed]

Originally posted by steaver:
Well it wasn't my quote but I will give two cents anyways. What if I bear good fruit for ten years and then stop? Am I then lost the day I stop? What if I start again, or would that be impossible because that would be like being born-again-again? What if I bear fruit for say sixty years and then stop, and two days later die, will I then be sent to hell? Just how does a believer apply this to real life in your views? I know there are many days I fail to bear fruit. Am I lost those days?

God Bless!

Ezekiel 3:20-21 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand. Nevertheless if thou warn the righteous man, that the righteous sin not, and he doth not sin, he shall surely live, because he is warned; also thou hast delivered thy soul.

Ezekiel 18:26-28 When a righteous man turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and dieth in them; for his iniquity that he hath done shall he die. Again, when the wicked man turneth away from his wickedness that he hath committed, and doeth that which is lawful and right, he shall save his soul alive. Because he considereth, and turneth away from all his transgressions that he hath committed, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

Ezekiel 18:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die ...


(the other) Ray

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
[QB] </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

when someone believes on Jesus for salvation - they are instantly born of Spirit and Water - or born again/regenerated. the process of salvation does not end at that moment - it continues until one dies. that is the point that man is led by the Spirit to continue to strive to seek and love God.

You just cannot seem to grasp the trem "born". One does not keep on being born in the flesh (by water) each day of their lives. It is an EVENT, in an instant, and finished...on to maturity. Just the same when one is born of God, it is an EVENT, in an instant. One does not continue daily to be regenerated. </font>[/QUOTE]uhhh ......... that's exactly what I said. We are regenerated the instant we believe. The process of salvation is a lifetime of seeking God, salvation does not end when you believe - God continues the work in us until we are completed. We are renewed and transformed by a process in which we are submitted to the Holy Spirit for chastening, discipline and correction.

Perhaps our definition of salvation is what is tripping up this dialogue. Salvation, as defined in the Greek:

soteria #4991
1) deliverance, preservation, safety, salvation
a) deliverance from the molestation of enemies
b) in an ethical sense, that which concludes to the souls safety or salvation
1) of Messianic salvation
2) salvation as the present possession of all true Christians
3) future salvation, the sum of benefits and blessings which the Christians, redeemed from all earthly ills, will enjoy after the visible return of Christ from heaven in the consummated and eternal kingdom of God.

Heb 12:6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

posted by steaver:
eloidalmanutha </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> There are believers who will fall away - that have been regenerated and born again. As Jesus said, they believed and then fell away - see above verse - 1 John 5:1

1John 5:1 says they have been regenerated and then fell away </font>[/QUOTE]cute, steavers - you do keep me busy

believers have been regenerated/born again are so instantly at the time of belief. They are full believers in Christ - per 1 John 5:1. they can fall away after this point. The parable of the Sower, and the Vine - the fruit whithered. Fruit cannot grow if it's not in the Vine to begin with.

Let me ask you what you think Jesus meant when He said that those who don't bear fruit will be cut off, thrown into the fire and burned?

 

[eloidalmanutha]

posted by steaver:
Elo, is the above passage speaking to you? Yes or No? If "no" why not? If "yes" then you will never lose your salvation brother!

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end , that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:9 God is faithful , by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord .

Is this speaking to you brother? Yes or No?

Brother Bob, you can answer as well. Is the above passages speaking to you or am I the only one here who thinks so?

God Bless!

[/QB]

yes, stevers, I believe that I will not lose my salvation. I am secure, bought and paid for

what is the point to your question?

 

[steaver]

elo...

yes, stevers, I believe that I will not lose my salvation. I am secure, bought and paid for

what is the point to your question?

So then you are one of the predestinated but tell others who believe that they might not be

God Bless!