Predestinated = OSAS

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

then if the branches are cut off because they do not produce fruit, that means? . . .

Jesus...As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself , except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

Jesus...He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing .

Jesus...If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Abide in Jesus in order to bear fruit . ALL believers will go through the Refiners fire. ALL believers will bear fruit, some a little some much. ALL believers will have deeds destroyed in the fire and ALL believers will have some gold and silver deeds(those done through abiding in Christ)make it through....1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Isn't the CONTEXT of the passage "bearing fruit"? This fact along with the full counsel of God's scripture does not allow for an intepretation that one is saved and then lost. It just isn't there! If you believe bearing fruit is needed in addition to Grace to save yourself then you have fallen from Grace just like the Galatians and are going about to make yourself your own savior and casting aside the work of Christ on the cross.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]cute, stevers - the last time we went through this passage you did exact same thing - you keep forgetting to add the "rest of the story"

John 15:6 Unless one remains in Me, he is cast out as the branch and is dried up ; and they gather and throw them into a fire, and they are burned.

ps: you gather branches and burn them, not fruit

in reference to your 1 Cor 3:15 text - that passage is referring to those who have laid a foundation in Messiah and are true believers who have not fallen away, but have done all manner of works for the Lord - some with good intentions, some with not. It is the intent and motive that remains after the fire.

11 ¶ For no one is able to lay any other foundation beside the One having been laid, who is Jesus Christ.
12 And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, grass, straw,
13 the work of each will be revealed; for the Day will make it known, because it is revealed in fire; and the fire will prove the work of each, what sort it is.
14 If the work of anyone which he built remains, he will receive a reward.
15 If the work of anyone shall be consumed, he shall suffer loss; but he will be saved, but so as through fire

 

[steaver]

elo...

cute, stevers - the last time we went through this passage you did exact same thing - you keep forgetting to add the "rest of the story"

John 15:6 Unless one remains in Me, he is cast out as the branch and is dried up ; and they gather and throw them into a fire, and they are burned.

ps: you gather branches and burn them, not fruit

i believe I did address "the rest of the story"...

Steaver...

Jesus...If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Abide in Jesus in order to bear fruit . ALL believers will go through the Refiners fire. ALL believers will bear fruit, some a little some much. ALL believers will have deeds destroyed in the fire and ALL believers will have some gold and silver deeds(those done through abiding in Christ)make it through....1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

elo...

in reference to your 1 Cor 3:15 text - that passage is referring to those who have laid a foundation in Messiah and are true believers who have not fallen away, but have done all manner of works for the Lord - some with good intentions, some with not. It is the intent and motive that remains after the fire.

Oh, I thought it said..."If any man's work shall be burned"...Your bible says "intentions" will be burned, ok I thought it would be good works done while abiding in Christ,for Christ, verses works done having no value for Christ, or good fruit verses bad fruit.

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

posted by steaver:

Abide in Jesus in order to bear fruit . ALL believers will go through the Refiners fire. ALL believers will bear fruit, some a little some much. ALL believers will have deeds destroyed in the fire and ALL believers will have some gold and silver deeds(those done through abiding in Christ)make it through....1Cr 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

in reference to your 1 Cor 3:15 text - that passage is referring to those who have laid a foundation in Messiah and are true believers who have not fallen away, but have done all manner of works for the Lord - some with good intentions, some with not. It is the intent and motive that remains after the fire.

Oh, I thought it said..."If any man's work shall be burned"...Your bible says "intentions" will be burned, ok I thought it would be good works done while abiding in Christ,for Christ, verses works done having no value for Christ, or good fruit verses bad fruit.

God Bless! [/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]you still have not addressed "the branch". You keep going back to the fruit. The branch whithered, died and was cut off and burned. The believer was cut off because they did not bear fruit.

I did not say that good intentions are burned up. That is what remains after the burning. read what I said again here, let me help

"but have done all manner of works for the Lord - some with good intentions, some with not. It is the intent and motive that remains after the fire.

Heb 4:12 For the Word of God is living, and powerfully working, and sharper than every two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of both soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge of the thoughts and intentions of the heart ;
13 and there is no creature unrevealed before Him; but all things are naked and laid open to His eyes, with whom is our account.

 

[steaver]

elo...

I did not say that good intentions are burned up. That is what remains after the burning. read what I said again here, let me help

Ah, yes you did brother. Here, let me help you understand what you wrote

elo..."but have done all manner of works for the Lord - some with good intentions, some with not . It is the intent and motive that remains after the fire"...

You say that "intent and motive" is what remains. That would be the "good intentions" and the "some with not" would be the "bad intentions" that are burned up. But what truly goes through the fire is ALL of the works and those works wrought in Christ will survive and those works not wrought in Christ will disapear.

The road to hell is paved with "good intentions". The scripture is specifically speaking about performing works for the cause of Christ. Works are fruits.

elo...

you still have not addressed "the branch". You keep going back to the fruit. The branch whithered, died and was cut off and burned. The believer was cut off because they did not bear fruit.

Ok elo, then I must conclude that you do not believe Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You believe it takes "work" to "keep" your "free" "gift" given you by "grace". If this is what you believe then you have no understanding of "free" "gift" "grace" and "not of yourselves". I just don't know how God could have made it any plainer for us finite humans to understand.

What do you need me to say about the "branch"? If a man not abide in Christ he can do nothing and will whither and die and be cut off. Because I understand "grace" and "regeneration" I know this does not speak of salvation. Because I understand the context of the teaching I know it means remain in Christ's teaching so I will not whither away, die and be cut off from bearing fruit , which has great reward.

Keep everything said in the context of the passage. You are plucking out some lines and using them for the wrong applications. "Cut off and burned" can only be bridged over to "saved then lost" if one ignores the context which is clearly about "bearing fruit". Fruit does not save!

elo, brother, fruit does not save !


God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

Originally posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />elo...

I did not say that good intentions are burned up. That is what remains after the burning. read what I said again here, let me help

Ah, yes you did brother. Here, let me help you understand what you wrote

elo..."but have done all manner of works for the Lord - some with good intentions, some with not . It is the intent and motive that remains after the fire"...

You say that "intent and motive" is what remains. That would be the "good intentions" and the "some with not" would be the "bad intentions" that are burned up. But what truly goes through the fire is ALL of the works and those works wrought in Christ will survive and those works not wrought in Christ will disapear.

The road to hell is paved with "good intentions". The scripture is specifically speaking about performing works for the cause of Christ. Works are fruits.

elo...

you still have not addressed "the branch". You keep going back to the fruit. The branch whithered, died and was cut off and burned. The believer was cut off because they did not bear fruit.

Ok elo, then I must conclude that you do not believe Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

You believe it takes "work" to "keep" your "free" "gift" given you by "grace". If this is what you believe then you have no understanding of "free" "gift" "grace" and "not of yourselves". I just don't know how God could have made it any plainer for us finite humans to understand.

What do you need me to say about the "branch"? If a man not abide in Christ he can do nothing and will whither and die and be cut off. Because I understand "grace" and "regeneration" I know this does not speak of salvation. Because I understand the context of the teaching I know it means remain in Christ's teaching so I will not whither away, die and be cut off from bearing fruit , which has great reward.

Keep everything said in the context of the passage. You are plucking out some lines and using them for the wrong applications. "Cut off and burned" can only be bridged over to "saved then lost" if one ignores the context which is clearly about "bearing fruit". Fruit does not save!

elo, brother, fruit does not save !


God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]ahh, then if I say, I believe in Jesus as my Savior, have been born again, regenerated, then I can do as I please - get drunk, get drugged up, be adulterous, etc and my works will get burned up, I have zero fruit, but I escape through the flames and still make it into Heaven. Where I stand before God and say - hey thanks for the free ride, it was great. I got to live out the flesh all the way, and this is really cool, I am saved by grace and didn't have to do a thing and all you stupid christians who gave up everything, and bore all that good fruit, get exactly the same end. This is too funny. GOT CHA, suckers! you should've read the word better - the last laugh is on you.

 

[standingfirminChrist]

One prob with that statement, eloi...

It sounds like yer making the profession of faith with the intentions to continue living in sin.

God does not hear such a profession.

David wrote in Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me.

God knows the thoughts and intentions of the heart. And His Holy Spirit convicts the heart. If one truly is of God, when that one strays from the fold, the Spirit convicts.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

posted by steaver:
You say that "intent and motive" is what remains. That would be the "good intentions" and the "some with not" would be the "bad intentions" that are burned up. But what truly goes through the fire is ALL of the works and those works wrought in Christ will survive and those works not wrought in Christ will disapear.

The road to hell is paved with "good intentions". The scripture is specifically speaking about performing works for the cause of Christ. Works are fruits.


eloidalmanutha:
"the works not wrought in Christ will disappear" - you actually believe that? whoa. What about what Jesus said, that we will be held accountable for every foolish word we speak?

I wonder what the point of the Christian life is if it does not matter in the end.

 

[eloidalmanutha]

it would be great if you could provide scripts that works are fruit. Last I looked the fruit of the Spirit was love, joy, patience, etc - you know - a state of being and acting towards others. I must have read it wrong.

 

[steaver]

elo...

ahh, then if I say, I believe in Jesus as my Savior, have been born again, regenerated, then I can do as I please - get drunk, get drugged up, be adulterous, etc and my works will get burned up, I have zero fruit, but I escape through the flames and still make it into Heaven. Where I stand before God and say - hey thanks for the free ride, it was great. I got to live out the flesh all the way, and this is really cool, I am saved by grace and didn't have to do a thing and all you stupid christians who gave up everything, and bore all that good fruit, get exactly the same end. This is too funny. GOT CHA, suckers! you should've read the word better - the last laugh is on you.

Elo, this is exactly what I have been preaching on. Understanding regeneration is understanding that one who has been born of God is a new creation (Christ living in you)which does not say the things you have written.
It isn't a majic prayer that causes a person to be regenerated. It is a broken heart pricked by the Holy Spirit. It is calling on Jesus for mercy and salvation. And it is God alone who does the rebirth placing the Spirit of Christ IN YOU.
However you are still stuck with the sinful flesh and thus a struggle is now set in place, the flesh against the holiness of Christ living in you. So salvation is of the Lord and fleshly sanctification is something each one must "work" on with the Lord.
Faithful is He who called you...1Th 5:23 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Th 5:24 Faithful is he that calleth you , who also will do it .

What you have discribed above is not born-again. You are mixing "Grace" which is salvation and "working out your salvation" which is the sanctification of the Believer. Salvation is "not of yourselves", but sanctification is in part of yourself working it out with God's help. In the end God will have His way with His children and when they are free from the flesh they will no longer rebel in any way against their Father to the glory of Jesus Christ!

This is why you cannot scare a person into heaven. They must be convicted of their unholiness and choose the Grace offered in Jesus Christ.

I always found it facinating that Paul never once mentioned hell to the believers he wrote to. Paul never tried to scare anyone with hell. Paul did give warnings about facing their God and having to give an account for their lives after being born of God.

The ONLY WAY one will ENTER heaven is through the works of Jesus Christ and faith in those works. Works or fruits of the individual will be given ZERO consideration FOR SALVATION! The believer's works and fruits are solely for reward.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

eloidalmanutha:
"the works not wrought in Christ will disappear" - you actually believe that? whoa. What about what Jesus said, that we will be held accountable for every foolish word we speak?

Only believers will go through the Refiners fire and yes any bad works will disapear, Praise Jesus!

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Read the entire passage and you will understand what Jesus is speaking of. It is about knowing the true man by his fruits, out of the heart man speaks the truth. Those who lie will give an account of their words. If you have a good heart you will not speak deciet, but if you have a bad heart you can lie as you speak to cover up the evil that is truly in your heart.

Not sure what this has to do with "works".

elo...

it would be great if you could provide scripts that works are fruit. Last I looked the fruit of the Spirit was love, joy, patience, etc - you know - a state of being and acting towards others. I must have read it wrong.

You read it correctly.
So then you believe John 15 is speaking about bearing the fruits of the Spirit, a state of being and actions towards others? This doesn't include any "works"? I am out of time right now but I will look into this.

God Bless!

 

[eloidalmanutha]

posted by steaver:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> eloidalmanutha:
"the works not wrought in Christ will disappear" - you actually believe that? whoa. What about what Jesus said, that we will be held accountable for every foolish word we speak?

Only believers will go through the Refiners fire and yes any bad works will disapear, Praise Jesus!

Mat 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

Read the entire passage and you will understand what Jesus is speaking of. It is about knowing the true man by his fruits, out of the heart man speaks the truth. Those who lie will give an account of their words. If you have a good heart you will not speak deciet, but if you have a bad heart you can lie as you speak to cover up the evil that is truly in your heart.

elo...

it would be great if you could provide scripts that works are fruit. Last I looked the fruit of the Spirit was love, joy, patience, etc - you know - a state of being and acting towards others. I must have read it wrong.

You read it correctly.
So then you believe John 15 is speaking about bearing the fruits of the Spirit, a state of being and actions towards others? This doesn't include any "works"? I am out of time right now but I will look into this.

God Bless! </font>[/QUOTE]stevers wrote:
Only believers will go through the Refiners fire and yes any bad works will disapear, Praise Jesus!

eloidalmanutha:
so when we stand in judgment before Christ and all our sins are laid out before us, you are thinking that He has amnesia?

stevers wrote:
Read the entire passage and you will understand what Jesus is speaking of. It is about knowing the true man by his fruits, out of the heart man speaks the truth. Those who lie will give an account of their words. If you have a good heart you will not speak deciet, but if you have a bad heart you can lie as you speak to cover up the evil that is truly in your heart.

eloidalmanutha:
not one of us is without sin, even deceit in the heart.

Jer 17:9 The heart [is] deceitful above all [things], and desperately wicked: who can know it?

eloidalmanutha:
the fruit of the Spirit is not works, it's a state of being. The fruit includes righteousness and Truth, joy, peace, love, patience, self control, compassion etc. We can use that fruit to do the works with the right motive, but we can love, be patient, have self control, have truth and be righteous without doing anything. I believe that fruit is the attitude of the heart.

 

[Claudia_T]

Matthew 3:
7: But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?
8: Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:
9: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham.

10: And now also the axe is laid unto the root of the trees: therefore every tree which bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

I dont know how anyone can think fruit has nothing to do with salvation.

You know, like when Jesus saw the fig tree and it didnt have any fruit on it so He blasted the fig tree?

And yes its works. Repentence means being sorry enough for your sins to quit doing them.

I honestly dont know why this is so difficult for people to grasp. They act like "works" is a dirty word.


Jms:2:14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

the obvious answer?

NO!


Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Galatians 5:
13: For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.
14: For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
15: But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.
16: This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17: For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18: But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
19: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Do you understand now that when we crucify our sin,,, crucify the flesh... and begin walking in the Spririt... producing the fruits of the Spirit (love, defined in the Bible as the ten commandments -Romans 13:8-10) - that THEN we are no longer "Under the CONDEMNATION OF that law"? Why? because... Galatians 5 verse 22: But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23: Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

There IS NO LAW against love! Love IS the Law, the Law IS love! so when we begin keeping the law, THEN we are no longer "under the condemnation of the law of sin and death" you see? Why? BECAUSE WE ARE NO LONGER VIOLATING THAT LAW! Now if someone tries to teach you that the Bible says we are now free from KEEPING THE LAW... you can KNOW they are a false teacher!

 

[Claudia_T]

taking this out from the passage above regarding "fruit":

24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.


THAT is what the fruit of the Spirit is.

Cant get around it, there's no way out of it!

Yes you are actually going to have to DO something! LOL!

I cant believe to what lengths people are willing to go to just to avoid having to DO something for Christ.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

9: Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20: Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21: Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

24: And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

 

[Claudia_T]

Guys, how can these verses be any plainer?

1. If you dont have fruit, you are "cut down" and thrown into the fire

2. If you dont have repentence, you are "cut down" and thrown into the fire

3. Having fruit is exact opposite of works of the flesh or of not keeping the law. SIN... envy, murder, drunkenness, etc... is NOT to have fruit.

4. Those who hold on to their sin or the works of the flesh will NOT enter the kingdom of God.


"I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts."

Why do people want to close their eyes and act like these Bible verses just arent really there?

Do you really think you are doing yourself any service by living in denial of the facts?

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Here's yet another way of putting it:

Rom:8:7: Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Rom:8:6: For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.


NO you cant keep your hatred of God's Law and still go to heaven!

YES you are going to actually have to do something! Namely you are going to have to crucify the flesh and begin walking in God's Law.

There's no way around this kids!

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Jn:5:29: And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Rv:20:12: And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rv:20:13: And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

 

[steaver]

Claudia...

Guys, how can these verses be any plainer?

...Why do people want to close their eyes and act like these Bible verses just arent really there?

Do you really think you are doing yourself any service by living in denial of the facts?

Hi Claudia, You ask the same questions I have. Why haven't you addressed predestination and the "plainess" of those scriptures? I will wait for your reply to them. I asked you a question awhile back...are those predesination scriptures for you?

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

eloidalmanutha:
so when we stand in judgment before Christ and all our sins are laid out before us, you are thinking that He has amnesia?

Sin will not be laid out before you. That has already been done when you were convicted of sin by the Holy Ghost. Sins past, present and future were taken away, they were paid in full with the blood of Jesus at the cross. The judgment seat of Christ is for judgment of deeds while done in the body for the believer only. The Great White Throne judgment is for the non-believers.

What does this scripture mean...

Hbr 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Hbr 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more .

You are in the New Covenant are you not elo? "Not remembering", is that like amnesia?

God Bless!