Predestinated = OSAS

steaver · Apr 4, 2006

Steaver...

Think of a word " us ". Keep this in mind and read. I will add some helps in brackets...

Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow[us], he also did predestinate[us] to be conformed to the image of his Son , that he might be the firstborn among many brethren[us].
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate[us], them[us] he also called: and whom he called[us], them[us] he also justified: and whom he justified[us], them[us] he also glorified .
Rom 8:31 What shall we[us] then say to these things? If God be for us , who can be against us ?

Elo, is the above passage speaking to you? Yes or No? If "no" why not? If "yes" then you will never lose your salvation brother!

1Cr 1:8 Who shall also confirm you unto the end , that ye may be blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.
1Cr 1:9 God is faithful , by whom ye were called unto the fellowship of his Son Jesus Christ our Lord .

Is this speaking to you brother? Yes or No?

Brother Bob, you can answer as well. Is the above passages speaking to you or am I the only one here who thinks so?

God Bless!

This is from page 3. You could have easily missed it because it was to Elo and then I added for you also in the end.

And then I asked you again on page 4...

Hi Bob!

Where is your answer about predestination? Is the passage speaking about you or not?

God Bless!

Now Elo answered..." yes, stevers, I believe that I will not lose my salvation. I am secure, bought and paid for "

Yet Elo takes the side against OSAS for any other brother ot sister in Christ. I don't know what you would call that!

Elo believes that he is predestinated to "stay" saved(OSAS), but others are not. I guess that would be "cherry picking" as you say, like "subgroups"

. This means predestinated applies to some believers but not all believers, just like when you say that Hebrews 6 applies only to some believers, not all believers. This is very poor bible scholarship at best.

So how about you Bob? Does the above verses include you?

God Bless!

ps. Elo does not "get it" concerning the understanding that sins are not the focus of the judgment seat of Christ. Sins have been washed away by the blood of Christ, paid in full! Since you agree with Elo then you must not get it either.

BobRyan · Apr 4, 2006

"the we" and the "you" are pretty much everybody - sometimes it is a reference to we/you for the whole of humanity and sometimes for "church members".

"Hint: Paul had no way of writing letters that would be read ONLY by the really really truly saved within a given congregation".

So yes the texts apply to all of us - everybody in church. Everyone who claims to have accepted Christ.

This is also true of 2Tim 2 -

Turn about is fair play - since you seem to be willing to engage in this "We/You" quetion - please respond to this -

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

<blockquote>quote:<hr />2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

[/QUOTE]

steaver · Apr 4, 2006

"the we" and the "you" are pretty much everybody - sometimes it is a reference to we/you for the whole of humanity and sometimes for "church members".

This is very nice, but I am speaking right now about a specific passage of scripture and not all scripture in general. Are you one of the "us" spoken of in the passage I gave?

"Hint: Paul had no way of writing letters that would be read ONLY by the really really truly saved within a given congregation".

Again, what rabbit trail are you trying to lay? I asked you specifically about predestinated "us".

So yes the texts apply to all of us - everybody in church. Everyone who claims to have accepted Christ.

"So yes"? So nothing! Are YOU BOBRYAN one of the "us" spoken of in the passage?

This is also true of 2Tim 2 -

Turn about is fair play - since you seem to be willing to engage in this "We/You" quetion - please respond to this -

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Tell you what. I will GLADLY respond just as soon as you answer my question...Are you one of the predestinated spoken of in the passages about this topic?

God Bless!

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2006

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So yes the texts apply to all of us - everybody in church. Everyone who claims to have accepted Christ.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steaver asks
"So yes"? So nothing! Are YOU BOBRYAN one of the "us" spoken of in the passage?

Indeed "everybody" is a pretty broad scope - how could I NOT be included?

Back to 2Tim 2 - who do you say the "WE" and the "US" are?

BobRyan · Apr 5, 2006

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steaver said

Tell you what. I will GLADLY respond just as soon as you answer my question...Are you one of the predestinated spoken of in the passages about this topic?

I had already done so in claiming that the scope is everyone in church. "Obviously".

Now why do you still dodge the 2Tim 2 question?

In fact I will help you with 2Tim 2- it is the SAME everybody - the same WE and US!!

In Christ,

Bob

steaver · Apr 5, 2006

Bob...

Indeed "everybody" is a pretty broad scope - how could I NOT be included?

Ok, forgive me and bear with me a moment. I don't know if you are deliberately advoiding the question or that I am just not stating it clearly. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is just me.

"Everybody in the church"(I take this to mean those sitting in a congregation of believers) is NOT saved/predestinated(or maybe you do mean all of the saved, correct me if I am wrong), ok?

Your answer is basically saying that the passage is speaking "TO everybody" who reads it or hears it. This is NOT answering my very pointed question which is pointed directly towards you.

Let me ask it another way one more time. Are YOU ONE OF THE PREDESTINATED SPOKEN OF in these passages? I am NOT asking if the passages are SPEAKING TO YOU just as they are speaking to anybody who reads or hears them.

Here are the only possible answers;

a) Yes, I HAVE BEEN predestinanted by God, the passages speak OF ME.

b) No, I HAVE NOT BEEN predestinated by God, the passages DO NOT speak OF ME.

c) I don't know.

Do you see the difference between being spoken TO and being spoken OF?

There you go...a,b or c and then we can move forward.

I appologize for not being more specific three post ago. I hope this last post clarifies my question. I just want you to be sure just what question you are answering for me. It is a small detail but it presents a VERY BIG difference.

God Bless!

BobRyan · Apr 7, 2006

Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Steaver said

Tell you what. I will GLADLY respond just as soon as you answer my question...Are you one of the predestinated spoken of in the passages about this topic?

I had already done so in claiming that the scope is everyone in church. "Obviously".

Now why do you still dodge the 2Tim 2 question?

In fact I will help you with 2Tim 2- it is the SAME everybody - the same WE and US!!

In Christ,

Bob [/QUOTE]Now see if you had just read that post and paid attention to the details you would have had your answer twice.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 7, 2006

Bob...

Indeed "everybody" is a pretty broad scope - how could I NOT be included?

Originally posted by steaver:

Ok, forgive me and bear with me a moment. I don't know if you are deliberately advoiding the question or that I am just not stating it clearly. I will give you the benefit of the doubt and say it is just me.

"Everybody in the church"(I take this to mean those sitting in a congregation of believers) is NOT saved/predestinated(or maybe you do mean all of the saved, correct me if I am wrong), ok?

True. So as I pointed out 2Tim 2 is also pointing to the SAME list of "everybody" who claims to be a Christian!!

Your answer is basically saying that the passage is speaking "TO everybody" who reads it or hears it.

How true.

And of course - I am one of those people reading it.

Steaver said --
This is NOT answering my very pointed question which is pointed directly towards you.

How odd. I could have sworn you would have thought that I was one of the people reading the text.

Why would you take this as a sign that I do not accept it as applying to me when I say it applies to ALL??

Let me ask it another way one more time. Are YOU ONE OF THE PREDESTINATED SPOKEN OF in these passages?

Let me say it again. We all are! And I am among us!!

Why do you keep taking that as a "no"??

Steaver said
Here are the only possible answers;

a) Yes, I HAVE BEEN predestinanted by God, the passages speak OF ME.

b) No, I HAVE NOT BEEN predestinated by God, the passages DO NOT speak OF ME.

c) I don't know.

By A do you mean "I have been predestined by God and the passage speaks of me But DOES Not address the other Christians claiming to know Christ as well".

Because if you do mean that by "A" then picked my own "A" not yours.

Does it surprise you that the "box trick" is not working?

I apologize if I gave you the impression that "box tricks" would work in an open discussion. They only work if you are just talking to yourself.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 7, 2006

2 Tim 2:11-14

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

(Still waiting for Steaver to get around to answer the question -- at all)

steaver · Apr 7, 2006

It is as I thought. You do not understand of whom the passages are speaking of .

This would conclude then that you do not know if you are saved. This reveals much to me about why you believe in the doctrines you hold.

I do not mean to offend you, however it appears that you possess a "religion" rather than a "relationship" with a person Jesus Christ.

If you cannot see that the passages I posted are emphatically clear that they speak only of the saved then it may very well be true that you have not yet been born of God.

Now before you get all bent out of shape and go off on a rant about what I have said, please take a moment to reflect on yourself and ask yourself if you truly know Jesus Christ is in you . Being born again is the first step and only way to have scripture taught to you by the Holy Ghost. I speak this way to you only to provoke you to the truth and not to anger.

I find it next to impossible for someone who studies scripture and is born again to conclude that the passages about predestination are speaking of everybody who reads or hears them.

In conclusion Bob, if you are not one of those spoken of in the presdestinated passages then you are not saved. Not spoken to , spoken of !

God Bless! I pray God reveals the truth unto you.

ps(edit) You must understand that "everybody" is not predestinated for salvation. This throws out your answer. The predestinated are ONLY the born of God. The passage is speaking ONLY OF the saved-not everybody.

[ April 07, 2006, 10:02 AM: Message edited by: steaver ]

steaver · Apr 7, 2006

Where are you Claudia?? Still waiting for your replies. Are you one of the predestinated spoken of?

God Bless!

steaver · Apr 11, 2006

So far, Elo and Bob have been the only two anti-OSAS to make an attempt at dealing with the passages which speak of the predestinated of God, chosen before the foundation of the world to be conformed unto the immage of Jesus Christ and confirmed unto the end.

Elo was brave enough to answer with truth, agreeing that the passage speaks of him and he will never lose his salvation. The odd part about this is that it has not changed his mind about other born of God believers not losing their salvation. This is erroniously applying scripture selectively when the passage does not call for any "subgrouping" at all.

Bob's final answer is that the passage is speaking of everybody who reads it. This would have to include the lost as well as the saved. This would then mean that salvation is by the reading of the predestinated passages of scripture rather than by grace ye have been saved through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If Daffy Duck could read he could be eternally saved.

This thread has revealed the errors behind the anti-OSAS movement, but only by two participants. Where are all of the other anti-OSAS folks?

Claudia sure likes to propagandize against OSAS but has repeatedly declined to deal with this thread. I am sure many others have listened in but stayed out for fear of personally dealing with the inconvenient topic. They are content to just go on believing in error rather than facing the pointed truth about their salvation.

This thread by far has been one of the most enlightening for me. Elo and Bob have been solid opponents for the anti-OSAS movement and i will give them credit that they do mostly wrestle with the meat of the scripture. It is understandable how one could error in interpretation in many of the meatier passages, however, these predestinated passages has really set them off balance and I suspect it is why only two has chosen to give an attempt at answering the tough questions.

I give these two credit for that. At least they tried!

If anyone just joining us wants to read through this thread and respond I would be most grateful!

God Bless!

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2006

Did I already post this??

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

That seems to be the "Simple question" Steaver needs to avoid.

I wonder why it is that this direct text exposes his argument here.

It would have been better to just address the text of scripture Steaver.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2006

Originally posted by BobRyan:
2 Tim 2:11-14

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

(Still waiting for Steaver to get around to answer the question -- at all)

Indeed - still waiting...

steaver · Apr 12, 2006

Did I already post this??

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That seems to be the "Simple question" Steaver needs to avoid.

I wonder why it is that this direct text exposes his argument here.

It would have been better to just address the text of scripture Steaver.

In Christ,

Bob

Well let's see, should I re-word the questions and then answer them or should I just go away and avoid answering them or maybe I should lay down a rabbit trail in hopes that you forget about the original questions....No, I guess I will just answer them clearly since I have no problem with the harmony of the scriptures.

1) The "we" and the "us" of the text is speaking OF the SAVED ! (that wasn't to difficult

that would NOT include EVERYBODY who READS the passage!)

2) The "Author" (God) apllies the concept of "endurance" to "reigning with Christ" (I thought you said this would be difficult for me?).

Now the only place "salvation" is eluded to is in verse 13. God says that even if we (the saved) are "faithless" He remains faithful! He cannot deny Himself! Those in Christ belong to Christ forever! Two become one! Therefore Jesus cannot deny Himself when it comes to the "salvation" part. Jesus can deny us "reigning priviledges", as the passage clearly states.

Did you think that this passage somehow supported the false teaching of the saved getting lost again? Sorry. It wasn't difficult to understand or answer. I just wanted you to stay on point before we moved on. By doing so I was able to have you expose your hand and show the readers that you do not understand OF WHOM the passages are speaking of.

The passage you posted is speaking OF the SAVED. NOT EVERYBODY who READS them!

And the passages I posted about the predestinated are as well!

You have demonstrated a very poor understanding of this simple truth in an attempt to protect a false doctrine. Why not just speak the truth of the matter? Which is that the predestinated passages are speaking OF the SAVED!

Dodging and re-wording and rabbit trailing

...Just answer the simple questions... like I did!

God Bless!

ps. where are all your friends on this subject? You and Elo are the only ones who attempted to deal with it. No Claudia in this thread

steaver · Apr 12, 2006

Sorry, verse 13 is not the only place salvation is eluded to. Verse 11 states it also, that if we have died with Him we will also live with Him. Endurance is about "reigning with Christ".

God Bless!

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2006

Bob's final answer is that the passage is speaking of everybody who reads it. This would have to include the lost as well as the saved. This would then mean that salvation is by the reading of the predestinated passages of scripture rather than by grace ye have been saved through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. If Daffy Duck could read he could be eternally saved.

Sadly - if you had simply read my answer instead of making up a "daffy duck" response you would have seen this --

Originally posted by BobRyan:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by BobRyan:
#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Steaver said

Tell you what. I will GLADLY respond just as soon as you answer my question...Are you one of the predestinated spoken of in the passages about this topic?

I had already done so in claiming that the scope is everyone in church. "Obviously".

Now why do you still dodge the 2Tim 2 question?

In fact I will help you with 2Tim 2- it is the SAME everybody - the same WE and US!!

In Christ,

Bob [/QUOTE]Now see if you had just read that post and paid attention to the details you would have had your answer twice.

[/QUOTE]It is clear "and obvious" that Paul speaks to all in 2Tim2 when saying "WE" just as he does for your topic!

Paul is consistent.

You are simply trying to eisegete your own views into one scripture.

That is a huge difference.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2006

Did I already post this??

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That seems to be the "Simple question" Steaver needs to avoid.

I wonder why it is that this direct text exposes his argument here.

It would have been better to just address the text of scripture Steaver.

In Christ,

Bob
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Steaver said
Well let's see, should I re-word the questions and then answer them or should I just go away and avoid answering them

Try "answering them six times" as we all have done with your question.

Your attempts to simply "dodge the question" of WHO is the WE in BOTH texts is getting old.

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2006

Steaver gives us one answer.
1) The "we" and the "us" of the text is speaking OF the SAVED ! (that wasn't to difficult that would NOT include EVERYBODY who READS the passage!)

2) The "Author" (God) apllies the concept of "endurance" to "reigning with Christ" (I thought you said this would be difficult for me?).

Steaver chooses the SAME answer for BOTH texts just as WE have done!!

So in Steaver's case - he inserts the failing cases listed in 2Tim 2 into the lives of he Saved

2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.

OUR answer has been that not ONLY does this include the failing case in the case of the SAVED (as Steaver unwittingly confessed) it also shows the failing case in the lives of those who are not saved!!

And there is the simply obvious "difference" between our responses.

Glad to clarify this point!

In Christ,

Bob

BobRyan · Apr 12, 2006

Romans 8
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.
29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;
30 and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

Whom He “foreknew” He “predestined” to what destination? To become conformed to the image of His Son! God first foreknows the future – the choices of mankind given God’s sovereign decision from eternity past to give free will to created beings – including Lucifer.

Some here think that God does not "foreknow ALL" just the "arbitrarily select few" THAT IS NEVER the definition of "FOREKNOW" in all of scripture!! I many places the Bible shows that God foreknows the wicked deeds of mankind!

Chosen "accoring to foreknowledge" is to CHOOSE based on foreknowing events in the future - events that must include choice!

Calvinism tries to imagine that God turns of foreknowledge – then “Predestines” based on arbitrary selection (called unconditional election) then turns foreknowledge back on to SEE how it all works out.

But the text says that FIRST comes foreknowledge of the future. Foreknowledge of those who will choose life and then God determines that their DESTINY will be to be become conformed to the image of His Son.

As John 2 puts it “

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Predestinated = OSAS

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