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Predestinated = OSAS

Claudia_T

New Member
steaver,


Hi! I'm sorry, I didnt know you had asked me anything. I usually am really busy doing things and so I dont have time to follow up on much of anything here.

But I injured my foot and am confined to lie here in bed at least for awhile so I can answer. I hate trying to use this laptop computer though, it just kinda inserts words wherever it wants to in the paragraphs I write.

But anyway I went and looked through the pages on this topic I cant find the original question you asked me, could you please either repeat the question or else tell me which page its on?

Ok I gotta ask... is your name stever... as in your name is Steve and your last name begins with an R ?? Or is your name actually "steaver" as in Leave it to Beaver or in your case Leave it to Steaver?


Claudia
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Please forgive my goofiness, for I am on a bunch of different medications right now and its making me delerious. Of course its probably hard to tell the difference between now and how I act normally.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
steaver,

I was reading through some of the stuff on here and you said I like to propagandize... what do you mean by that? I really want to know because I didnt think I was that good at anything LOL!

then I see that Bob said you had a Daffy Duck response.

(trying to figure out what that might mean)...


actually stever, in some ways I do believe that I was predestined to do certain things... because when I was about 14 years old I actually heard God telling me "I have chosen you, and everyone will be against you"... and then some really really huge stuff happened to me in my church and all along the way before things would happen, I would have dreams about the events... even to the point of actually seeing one of the people in my dream that would be involved in the whole thing, before I even met him. The thing affected the entire denomination and the guy the Conference hired to handle the whole thing told me it was the biggest mess he had ever seen in the church.

I dont know about the idea of being "predestined" to be saved though.

I kinda view it as that yes, God already knows who is going to be saved, but its not like we can rest secure and imagine ourselves to be saved and not even care what we do or how we act anymore because of it.

I believe everybody has their own "station" to fill or "part to play" in this drama called "life". I believe in the Providence of God.

Claudia
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Steve,

I remember a verse about being predestined to be conformed to His image


Rom:8:29: For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom:12:2: And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.


but if thats the case there is no way in the world I would think that would apply to a christian who didnt believe that you have to keep God's Law, since being conformed to the image of Jesus would most certainly include that.

claudia
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Steaver,

Okay now, come on, Im waiting. You went here and even to other threads on the forum trying to embarrass me for not answering you (which works pretty well, actually)

so come on... convince me about Predestination!

This will probably be your only chance where I am actually open to suggestions, since Im on drugs.

Seriously though, I really would like to understand this topic and I am actually open to it... and if you can convince me of it I will accept it.
wavey.gif


Claudia
 

Claudia_T

New Member
steaver,

please forgive me for acting crazy. havent had but about 4 hours sleep for about 2 weeks and Im going through some severe emotional trauma lately. I will try to get ahold of myself and act right.

claudia
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
It is clear "and obvious" that Paul speaks to all in 2Tim2 when saying "WE" just as he does for your topic!

Paul is consistent.

You are simply trying to eisegete your own views into one scripture.

That is a huge difference.

In Christ,

Bob
It matters not how many times you declare that "we" and "us" in both passages is speaking OF all(lost or saved). It only sheds more light on your lack of understanding the scriptures.

The "we" and "us" are the SAVED! It is speaking OF the saved ONLY. You just simply cannot grasp the idea of whom is being spoken "of".

Try "answering them six times" as we all have done with your question.

Your attempts to simply "dodge the question" of WHO is the WE in BOTH texts is getting old.

In Christ,

Bob
"we All have done"??

It's just you Bob.

I am "dodging the question"?? Now you are making yourself look silly. Anyone reading knows who is answering and who is zig-zagging!

Steaver chooses the SAME answer for BOTH texts just as WE have done!!
Now you are posting lies. And anyone reading can clearly see that my answers are not the same as your answers. Your answers includes all readers(lost or saved). My answer includes only the saved.

So in Steaver's case - he inserts the failing cases listed in 2Tim 2 into the lives of the Saved
So nothing. You cannot post a lie and then add to it a "so".

OUR answer has been that not ONLY does this include the failing case in the case of the SAVED (as Steaver unwittingly confessed) it also shows the failing case in the lives of those who are not saved!!
There are no failing cases of the saved. And each text speaks only of the saved, not the lost.

And there is the simply obvious "difference" between our responses.

Glad to clarify this point!

In Christ,

Bob
Wait, I thought you said there was no difference between my answers and yours? You are confusing yourself.

Whom He “foreknew” He “predestined” to what destination? To become conformed to the image of His Son! God first foreknows the future – the choices of mankind given God’s sovereign decision from eternity past to give free will to created beings – including Lucifer.

Some here think that God does not "foreknow ALL" just the "arbitrarily select few" THAT IS NEVER the definition of "FOREKNOW" in all of scripture!! I many places the Bible shows that God foreknows the wicked deeds of mankind!

Chosen "accoring to foreknowledge" is to CHOOSE based on foreknowing events in the future - events that must include choice!


Calvinism tries to imagine that God turns of foreknowledge – then “Predestines” based on arbitrary selection (called unconditional election) then turns foreknowledge back on to SEE how it all works out.

But the text says that FIRST comes foreknowledge of the future. Foreknowledge of those who will choose life and then God determines that their DESTINY will be to be become conformed to the image of His Son.
Build a straw man and then tear it down. There is a thread on Calvin. I personally never read anything he wrote.

1John 2
3 By this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "" I have come to know Him,'' and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.
Congratulations! You found a passage that speaks of both the saved and the lost.

Your hand is played and defeated. Yes that is only my opinion. Let the readers make up their own minds.

God Bless!
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steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Ok I gotta ask... is your name stever... as in your name is Steve and your last name begins with an R ?? Or is your name actually "steaver" as in Leave it to Beaver or in your case Leave it to Steaver?

Claudia
Hi Claudia, my name is steve but all of my friends call me steaver because when I was a teenager some of my friends went off to college and came back to tell the gang that there was a boy there named Stevie Beaver. They stuck it on me and of course I resisted for months, even years, but ultimately that is how they addressed me and I finally accepted it. They call me anything from beaver, beave, steaver, stevie beaver, stevie bevie, well you get the picture. My good friend always uses steaver so that is what I made my screen name. But call me what ever you like! :D

Claudia...

I was reading through some of the stuff on here and you said I like to propagandize... what do you mean by that? I really want to know because I didnt think I was that good at anything LOL!
I will just post what Webster's says...

"Methods and measures for spreading doctrines, principles, printed matter, or speeches, for the purpose of promoting a cause, political, religious, or military."

Okay now, come on, Im waiting. You went here and even to other threads on the forum trying to embarrass me for not answering you (which works pretty well, actually)

so come on... convince me about Predestination!

This will probably be your only chance where I am actually open to suggestions, since Im on drugs.

Seriously though, I really would like to understand this topic and I am actually open to it... and if you can convince me of it I will accept it.

Claudia
Claudia, just go to page one and read my opening post. Pick it apart if you like, but answer me these two questions...

1) are you one of the called spoken of in the passages?

2) OF whom are the passages about predestination speaking? Is it the saved? Is it the lost? Is it both?

God Bless!
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Dustin

New Member
Judas Iscariot was predestined from the foundation of the world to betray Jesus Christ. Any other view of this is completely against scripture.
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Steve,


I just glanced over your first post and will read it more later.


so far I think of he place where it says many are called but few are chosen, so I will have to look at that some more.

I also think of the Jews who kept claiming they were the children of Abraham but then Jesus said to them they would do the works of Abraham if they truly were the children of Abe.

After just a glance so far I think of how every christian who read that might think they were one of the predestined ones, and we know that cannot be true because Jesus Himself said there wouold come a time when christians the foolish virgins, would say to Him they had done this and that but Jesus says depart from Me I never knew you. so everyone cant be the predestined.

I have to come back and read some more and think more about it though..


I think I will just call you Steve.

claudia
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Originally posted by BobRyan:
Did I already post this??

Simple questions for those that deny that these letters are applicable to the Gospel scope of the entire world –

#1 Who is the “we” and “us” of these texts?

#2 How does the author apply the concept of “endurance” as it relates to salvation and reigning “With Christ”?

</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
</font>[/QUOTE]Steaver "insists" that the WE here can only refer to the SAVEd.

"IF WE endure"

"IF WE DENY" - HE WILL deny US!!

"IF we are faithless"

"SOLEMNLY CHARGE THEM with these words"!!!

But Steaver's doctrine says "WE CAN NOT DENY Him and HE CAN NOT deny us" - since WE are only the SAVED and WE CAN never do such a thing. No need to solemnly charge US with such impossible things. It would like charging us NOT to become elephants at 6 pm on Thursdays. It is IMPOSSIBLE! Such a charge is pointless!"

How "instructive for the reader"
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Steve,

Ok I had a little time to think about it and JUSTIFIED and its correct meaning would hold the key for us to know who would be the ones talked about in those verses about predestination…

Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Jms:2:24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Jms:2:21: Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Jms:2:25: Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

"The chief among the publicans," Zacchaeus, was a Jew, and detested by his countrymen. His rank and wealth were the reward of a calling they abhorred, and which was regarded as another name for injustice and extortion. Yet the wealthy customs officer was not altogether the hardened man of the world that he seemed. Beneath the appearance of worldliness and pride was a heart susceptible to divine influences. Zacchaeus had heard of Jesus. The report of One who had borne Himself with kindness and courtesy toward the proscribed classes had spread far and wide. In this chief of the publicans was awakened a longing for a better life. Only a few miles from Jericho, John the Baptist had preached at the Jordan, and Zacchaeus had heard of the call to repentance. The instruction to the publicans, "Exact no more than that which is appointed you" (Luke 3:13), though outwardly disregarded, had impressed his mind. He knew the Scriptures, and was convicted that his practice was wrong. Now, hearing the words reported to have come from the Great Teacher, he felt that he was a sinner in the sight of God. Yet what he had heard of Jesus kindled hope in his heart. Repentance, reformation of life, was possible, even to him; was not one of the new Teacher's most trusted disciples a publican? Zacchaeus began at once to follow the conviction that had taken hold upon him, and to make restitution to those whom he had wronged.

Already he had begun thus to retrace his steps, when the news sounded through Jericho that Jesus was entering the town. Zacchaeus determined to see Him. He was beginning to realize how bitter are the fruits of sin, and how difficult the path of him who tries to return from a course of wrong. To be misunderstood, to be met with suspicion and distrust in the effort to correct his errors, was hard to bear. The chief publican longed to look upon the face of Him whose words had brought hope to his heart.

Above the clamor of priests and rabbis and the shouts of welcome from the multitude, that unuttered desire of the chief publican spoke to the heart of Jesus. Suddenly, just beneath the fig tree, a group halts, the company before and behind come to a standstill, and One looks upward whose glance seems to read the soul. Almost doubting his senses, the man in the tree hears the words, "Zacchaeus, make haste, and come down; for today I must abide at thy house."

The multitude give way, and Zacchaeus, walking as in a dream, leads the way toward his own home. But the rabbis look on with scowling faces, and murmur in discontent and scorn, "that He was gone to be guest with a man that is a sinner."
Zacchaeus had been overwhelmed, amazed, and silenced at the love and condescension of Christ in stooping to him, so unworthy. Now love and loyalty to his new-found Master unseal his lips. He will make public his confession and his repentance.

In the presence of the multitude, "Zacchaeus stood, and said unto the Lord; Behold, Lord, the half of my goods I give to the poor; and if I have taken anything from any man by false accusation, I restore him fourfold.


"And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham."
 

Claudia_T

New Member
Steve,

you see, when Jesus told the publican that he went down to his house justified, whereas the Pharisee did not...

the publican was thoroughly humbled whereas the Pharisee was not... just as Zacchaeus was humbled. true humility leads not only to confession and a realization that God alone can save you, BUT ALSO to a surrenderig of the being, the heart to God in every way.

that is the foundation, the key.
and yes, I would say if you were TRULY justified then you can place yourself among those talked about in the predestination passages.

Claudia
 

Claudia_T

New Member
you see, many are called but few are chosen... and those called, chosen and justified, truly justified, would be the entire foundation of those who go on to be sanctified and glorified, etc.
 

steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
....and yes, I would say if you were TRULY justified then you can place yourself among those talked about in the predestination passages.

Claudia
Please Claudia, why can't the anti-OSAS camp just simply answer simple questions?

1) are you one of the called spoken of in the passages ?

2) OF whom are the passages about predestination speaking ? Is it the saved? Is it the lost? Is it both?

You have two classes of people in this world. The lost and the saved! Just answer a simple question with a simple answer. There is no need to get into the qualifications. Saved or not saved? Simple!

God Bless!
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steaver

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Bob...

Steaver "insists" that the WE here can only refer to the SAVEd.

"IF WE endure"

"IF WE DENY" - HE WILL deny US!!

"IF we are faithless"

"SOLEMNLY CHARGE THEM with these words"!!!

But Steaver's doctrine says "WE CAN NOT DENY Him and HE CAN NOT deny us" - since WE are only the SAVED and WE CAN never do such a thing. No need to solemnly charge US with such impossible things. It would like charging us NOT to become elephants at 6 pm on Thursdays. It is IMPOSSIBLE! Such a charge is pointless!"

How "instructive for the reader"
Wrong Bob. Do you even take the time to read what I post?

The "WE" in all of the verses you listed above are indeed the SAVED. I gave answer to these already and I said nothing of the sort that you claim I have.

Here I will help you correctly state "Steavers doctrine" which is not mine but exactly what I read in God's Word...

WE(the saved) can DENY JESUS and JESUS can DENY US...God says so... 2Ti 2:12 ...if we deny him, he also will deny us:

WE(the saved) can BE FAITHLESS...God says so... 2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. Praise God that those who have become one with Christ will never be denied their gift of salvation...He cannot deny Himself(WE are one with Christ).

There you go, the truth about what Steaver simply speaks and believes!

God Bless!
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BobRyan

Well-Known Member
Steaver said
Wrong Bob. Do you even take the time to read what I post?

The "WE" in all of the verses you listed above (2Tim 2) are indeed the SAVED.
The point remains.


Steaver said
WE(the saved) can BE FAITHLESS...God says so... 2Ti 2:13 If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself. .. IF WE DENY HIM HE WILL ALSO DENY US

Praise God that those who have become one with Christ will never be denied their gift of salvation...He cannot deny Himself(WE are one with Christ).
So "again" of the SAVED you say --
WE CAN NOT DENY Him and HE CAN NOT deny us" - since WE are only the SAVED and WE CAN never do such a thing. No need to solemnly charge US with such impossible things. It would like charging us NOT to become elephants at 6 pm on Thursdays. It is IMPOSSIBLE! Such a charge is pointless!"


The point remains.
 

BobRyan

Well-Known Member
2 Tim 2
11 It is a trustworthy statement: For if we died with Him, we will also live with Him;
12 If we endure, we will also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us;
13 If we are faithless, He remains faithful, for He cannot deny Himself.
14 Remind them of these things, and solemnly charge them in the presence of God not to wrangle about words, which is useless and leads to the ruin of the hearers.
Notice that the "IF WE DENY HIM" part is the part Steaver refuses to quote - but then asserts that WE THE SAVED -- if we are truly truly really really "the saved" WILL NOT deny Him and it is pointless to suppose that we will!

Just as the argument above shows!!
 
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