Predestinated = OSAS

[Jarthur001]

Salvation is by Gods grace.

For by GRACE are you saved thought faith....

no works are needed.

if works are not needed to be saved...

why do you think works would unsave you?

 

[steaver]

....and absolutely positively and only relying upon the merits of my crucified and risen Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Claiming the promises of God in regards to Him accepting me because of the sacrifice of Jesus for my sins.

So you have a misinderstanding about me. I know its hard to communicate on this message board but I realize as never before my absolute dependence upon Christ and have faith He has forgiven all my sins and that God has thrown my sins into the depths of the sea.

Yet at the same time I will not lose sight of my own weaknesses and my folly at trusting myself. I know any minute I can let go of Jesus Christ and fall into temptation and possibly turn away from Christ, maybe not even realizing I did that.

You see Steve, I dont distrust God, I distrust myself, which are two completely different things.


Claudia

It is not that I misunderstand you Claudia, rather you misunderstand your own self.

In one breath you proclaim that it is God alone in whom you trust through Christ for salvation. In the next breath you always challenge your very own declarations. Either God saves you and keeps you saved or it is something of you.

My point to you is that you should not be telling others that they can lose their salvation through quoting scripture if you yourself cannot even explain your own salvation!

I have witnessed you posting dozens of passages dozens of times which speak about works, sins and fruits and claim that they affect one's salvation. Yet when the rubber hits the road you will claim that it is absolutely faith alone in Jesus Christ that saves. You can't have it both ways.

You came here to learn about predestinated by God before the foundation of the world. I asked you a couple of opening questions to lay for you the foundation of the passages.

1) You didn't want to claim you are saved. That was the first question.

2) I asked of whom the passages were speaking of? You have yet to answer this one. But you will not be able to answer if you do not understand that there is such a thing as being "saved" and "knowing it". This is "born again", "regenerated by God", a "new creature in Christ". It is an "event" that takes place within a person who calls on Jesus Christ. That is why it is called a birth by Jesus.

So of whom does the passages speak of? The lost? The saved? or both? You can read them again in my OP.

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

Hebrews 12
14: Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord :

15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16: Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17: For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


Let me ask you something now, what does the above passage mean to you?

Think about the BIRTHRIGHT, the INHERITANCE...

and how Esau lost it.


Be careful lest any man "fail of the grace of God" it says...


AND it says without HOLINESS, no man will see the Lord...


I believe we were called, and to receive the Inheritance, the Blessing.

But even if 1,000 people BELIEVE that they are one of the "Elect"... this doesnt make it so.

If one of them does not become holy, then the Bible says they will not see the Lord.

It doesnt matter if you "believe" it... has everyone who believeed they are one of the elect exhibited holiness?

Claudia

 

[Hope of Glory]

Claudia, you are talking about inheritance here, not spiritual salvation.

 

[steaver]

The problem is your self-conflicted stance that claims that such an "IF" is impossible!! You reduce the warning of God down to "don't turn into an elephant at 6pm on Thursdays".

In Christ,

Bob

Let me give this one more shot. I have no "self-conflicting stance". You simply are only reading what you want to see in my post.

Here is my original post about the text...

Steaver...

1) The "we" and the "us" of the text is speaking OF the SAVED ! (that wasn't to difficult that would NOT include EVERYBODY who READS the passage!)

2) The "Author" (God) apllies the concept of "endurance" to "reigning with Christ" (I thought you said this would be difficult for me?).

Now the only place "salvation" is eluded to is in verse 13. God says that even if we (the saved) are "faithless" He remains faithful! He cannot deny Himself! Those in Christ belong to Christ forever! Two become one! Therefore Jesus cannot deny Himself when it comes to the "salvation" part. Jesus can deny us "reigning priviledges", as the passage clearly states.

add on...

Sorry, verse 13 is not the only place salvation is eluded to. Verse 11 states it also, that if we have died with Him we will also live with Him. Endurance is about "reigning with Christ".

Do you see the two denials?

1) If we deny Him, He also will deny us (vs 12). There is absolutely no reason to relate this to salvation. In fact read in context it would relate to "suffering" and "reigning" with Christ. Peter denied Christ to avoid suffering. According to this verse denial will play a part at our judgment and what position we will have ruling with Christ if we get to rule at all because of our choices made here on earth.

2) "If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself (vs 13). The very next verse declares that Christ cannot deny himself. This only makes sense in light of the fact that we are one with Christ through regeneration. We are "in Christ". To deny us salvation because of faithlessness would be to deny Himself and this He cannot do!

This is actually a very good passage for pro-OSAS.

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

HopeofGlory:


Hebrews 12
14: Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord

did you get the part that says "without which no man shall see the Lord"??

 

[steaver]

Steve,

Hebrews 12
14: Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord :

15: Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;

16: Lest there be any fornicator, or profane person, as Esau, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright.

17: For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears.


Let me ask you something now, what does the above passage mean to you?

Think about the BIRTHRIGHT, the INHERITANCE...

and how Esau lost it.


Be careful lest any man "fail of the grace of God" it says...


AND it says without HOLINESS, no man will see the Lord...

Claudia, you are proving my point I just made to you. You are mixing apples and oranges.

Either salvation is trusting in Christ alone or it is you not failing God's grace and it is you keeping yourself holy and it is you never sinning again.

Let me ask you...Why wouldn't God forgive Esau? He repented with tears did he not? Doesn't the scripture say that if we repent and confess God is faithful to forgive us our sins?

The answer is that this passage is not about salvation and neither is the confessing our sins part! Moses was not allowed into the promissed land. Was he not saved?

This is what I mean about your posting verses in conflict about what you believe in your heart about salvation being faith alone in Christ.

Please don't get off the subject of predestinated though. I would like you to answer my previous questions if you can.

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

To me it seems silly the way that any time a bible verse says you have to do something or else that if you dont do something this or that will happen, you always claim "well that doesnt have anything to do with salvation".

Says who? that doesnt make any sense to me at all.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,


I have read it couple of times now, and I must say that it DOES sound like we are predestinated, which is a word I thought you made up LOL! Ive heard of predestined but never predestinated.

But anyway Steve. STILL it just doesnt match up with all of the other many Bible verses.

Honestly and sincerely, it is pretty confusing actually to me.

I must be honest, I do not understand it, it seems quite contradictory.

But the way you say those other verses have nothing to do with salvation and the way Ive heard others say that on this message board, that just seems like a cop-out to me and I cant see how someone could go around picking and choosing which verses are about salvation and which arent. Honestly that seems goofy to me.

But if theres anyone who wishes this predestinated thing were true it would be me

Like I told you, I had lots of things that I believe God told me ahead of time that were going to happen to me.

If you think about it, Jeremiah was predestined to do things:
Jeremiah chapter 1:
4: Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

5: Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

6: Then said I, Ah, Lord GOD! behold, I cannot speak: for I am a child.
7: But the LORD said unto me, Say not, I am a child: for thou shalt go to all that I shall send thee, and whatsoever I command thee thou shalt speak.
8: Be not afraid of their faces: for I am with thee to deliver thee, saith the LORD.
9: Then the LORD put forth his hand, and touched my mouth. And the LORD said unto me, Behold, I have put my words in thy mouth.
10: See, I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant.
19: And they shall fight against thee; but they shall not prevail against thee; for I am with thee, saith the LORD, to deliver thee.


Claudia

 

[steaver]

Steve,

To me it seems silly the way that any time a bible verse says you have to do something or else that if you dont do something this or that will happen, you always claim "well that doesnt have anything to do with salvation".

Says who? that doesnt make any sense to me at all.

Claudia

You say soo for one!

Claudia

....and absolutely positively and only relying upon the merits of my crucified and risen Saviour, Jesus Christ.

Claiming the promises of God in regards to Him accepting me because of the sacrifice of Jesus for my sins.

So you have a misinderstanding about me. I know its hard to communicate on this message board but I realize as never before my absolute dependence upon Christ and have faith He has forgiven all my sins and that God has thrown my sins into the depths of the sea.

You see sister? Your heart knows salvation is trusting ONLY in ALL the merits of Christ , yet you continue to post the merits of men as examples of getting saved and staying saved.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

But anyway Steve. STILL it just doesnt match up with all of the other many Bible verses.

Honestly and sincerely, it is pretty confusing actually to me.

I must be honest, I do not understand it, it seems quite contradictory.

Your honest answer is very much appreceated!

Maybe the passages about predestinated are so distinctive concerning eternal security that you should consider them very carefully before continuing to believe that many other not so distinctive passages are opposing them and the OSAS position?

Jam 1:5 If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.


Jam 1:6 But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering. For he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea driven with the wind and tossed.


Jam 1:7 For let not that man think that he shall receive any thing of the Lord.


Jam 1:8 A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.

You are correct in that it just doesn't match up with "your" interpretation of many other bible passages.

I was once just like you until I decided to erase all that I thought I knew and determined to harmonize ALL of the passages. There can be NO CONTRADICTIONS in the Word of Truth!

I pray you will take James advice as well as Pauls's in 2Tim 2:15. If you desire the truth, then the truth is what you will receive. But it must be with a pure heart to learn the scriptures and not with a motive to make the scriptures support any presumed view.

Like I said, I erased it all and began from scratch with God's Word and much prayer. It wasn't a three day lesson. It took about two years before I was convinced and that was studying pretty much every day. There is soo much to learn in God's Word! Even about just one issue!

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

yes I said I believe that salvation is through the merits of Jesus's sacrifice alone...

but we have no right to claim that if we do not forsake our wicked ways...


Isa:55:7: Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

you quoted this to me, insinuating I was unstable in my thinking since I believe in faith and works:

James 1:

8: A double minded man is unstable in all his ways.


is James himself "unstable"?

James 2:
14: What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
17: Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18: Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19: Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

20: But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
22: Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

23: And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

24: Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I mean, one minute James is talking about that Abraham believed God and that was imputed to him for righteousness and the next minute.... hes saying if we claim we have faith but dont have corresponding works it is useless...

If I am unstable then so is James...

 

[steaver]

you quoted this to me, insinuating I was unstable in my thinking since I believe in faith and works:

That was not what I was thinking when i quoted James. I appologize.

Does God's Word contradict itself?

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:


Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

I mean, one minute James is talking about that Abraham believed God and that was imputed to him for righteousness and the next minute.... hes saying if we claim we have faith but dont have corresponding works it is useless...

If I am unstable then so is James...

You must rightly divide the word of truth. There can be no contradictions. So you must harmonize all of the passages of scripture. How do you intend to do this between what Paul said and what James has said. It appears you are just choosing James and ignoring Paul. What do you think?

The truth is that James is declaring that true faith will have works accompanying it, not that the works is what saves.

Paul speaks of works that would merit salvation, there are none. James speaks of works that show a man has faith.

God Bless!

 

[steaver]

May I ask Claudia, have you prayed to God while studying asking Him to unlock the meaning of scripture to you? Or are you reitterating just what you have been taught?

God Bless!

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

Of course I pray every time I read the Bible.

and I know that works shows that a man has faith. Thats what Ive been trying to say all along. If you dont have works it proves you dont have faith and if you are saved by faith then>>>???

 

[Claudia_T]

Steve,

why do you continually have to talk down to me? Like saying acting like I must not pray when I study the Bible, and all the other remarks you have made. Dont you think thats unfair?

I dont do that to you... just because I disagree with you.

Claudia

 

[Claudia_T]

well I guess I need to stop with this conversation, it isnt getting anywhere and I dont like somebody putting me down all the time so it isnt productive to keep on with this..

 

[Claudia_T]

Well I just thought I'd go look it up in the writings of Ellen White, our church prophet .. to see what she says about Predestination/Election...

what she says makes sense to me...

Ellen White,
The Faith I Live By, page 157, paragraph 2
Chapter Title: Conversion And The New Life
In the council of heaven, provision was made that men, though transgressors, should not perish in their disobedience, but, through faith in Christ as their substitute and surety, might become the elect of God, predestinated unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to Himself according to the good pleasure of His will. God wills that all men should be saved; for ample provision has been made, in giving His only-begotten Son to pay man's ransom. Those who perish will perish because they refuse to be adopted as children of God through Christ Jesus....
There is no such thing in the Word of God as unconditional election--once in grace, always in grace. In the second chapter of Second Peter the subject is made plain and distinct. After a history of some who followed an evil course, the explanation is given: "Which have forsaken the right way, ... following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness." 2 Peter 2:15. . . . Here is a class of whom the apostle warns, "For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them." 2 Peter 2:21....
There is truth to be received if souls are saved. The keeping of the commandments of God is life eternal to the receiver. But the Scriptures make it plain that those who once knew the way of life and rejoiced in the truth are in danger of falling through apostasy, and being lost. Therefore there is need of a decided, daily conversion to God.
All who seek to sustain the doctrine of election, once in grace, always in grace, do this against a plain, "Thus saith the Lord."
It depends upon your course of action as to whether or not you will secure the benefits bestowed upon those who, as the elect of God, receive an eternal life-insurance policy.

 

[steaver]

Of course I pray every time I read the Bible.

and I know that works shows that a man has faith. Thats what Ive been trying to say all along. If you dont have works it proves you dont have faith and if you are saved by faith then>>>???

If you know this is what the scripture here teaches then why do you post this scripture in a defense against OSAS? This would have nothing to do with OSAS UNLESS you feel that once works cannot be seen anymore then that person although once saved, has now lost their salvation. Leave the scripture in the context which it was given-that is true faith SHOWS good works. It has nothing to do with good works MAINTAINING salvation.

why do you continually have to talk down to me? Like saying acting like I must not pray when I study the Bible, and all the other remarks you have made. Dont you think thats unfair?

I dont do that to you... just because I disagree with you.

Claudia

My appologies that you feel this way. Like you said, that is how it sounds sometimes without a face to face conversation. I love you as a sister in Christ. I believe you are saved by the post you have made to me. I only ask these questions in hopes to persuade you out of error...

Jam 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
Jam 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

Well I just thought I'd go look it up in the writings of Ellen White, our church prophet .. to see what she says about Predestination/Election...

what she says makes sense to me...

Who told you she was a prophet? Did you research all of her writings yourself or did someone convince you she was? Personally I reseached her writings and find her to be nothing more than a preacher and a very poor one at that. What she wrote here hardly makes any sense. She totally ignores the predestinated passages and declares them lies because she does not understand 2 Peter! She pits scripture against scripture rather than harmonizing the scripture.

Anyone could do the same thing. I could say because of predestinated 2Pt cannot mean OSAS is false. It could go both ways, this is not rightly dividing the truth, it is choosing to ignore one text in support of another. She gives NO explanation for the predestinated passages.

You choose to trust in Ellen, she is your final authority on these matters. This is why you cannot/willnot change your position on this. You yourself said that you do not understand the passages-that they appear to support OSAS. But because Ellen doesn't like them you will not like them either.

This is why I asked you about studying and praying without any preconceived position. I am not putting you down. I just want you to be taught by God rather than just following a so-called prophet. Which if you really researched her life and what she wrote you would have seen that she adds nothing to the church of Jesus Christ. She simply forms her own opinion and her own interpretations of our scriptures. Your simply following a denomination like thousands upon thousands do every day, regardless of whether or not they can really see the doctrines clearly in the scriptures.

God Bless!