No, the Gospel and the bible are not dishonest. John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.
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"predestinated"
- Thread starter SheepWhisperer
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SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Good verse! I believe it .
Then why say it is "dishonest?"
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
I didn't say it was dishonest.
Yes, you did. "You claim there's a "universal call" but only those "enabled" can answer? That's dishonest, sir."
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
No, I said YOU were being dishonest.
About the verse: God does not "drag" "all men". If he did, everyone would be saved. No sir,He draws(tugs) at the heart of all men by the record of what He did on Calvary and by His Holy Spirit which convinces the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Felix felt that tug on his heart "while he reasoned of temperance, righteousness and judgement to come" as Paul was giving him the gospel. The man trembled, sir. Quite sure the "judgment" part brought that on. But he said "go thy way": he resisted. The Holy Spirit can be "grieved" and "resisted" sir, because God gives us the choice. And again, that is not weakness on God's part. He puts rejectors in hell in the end.
About the verse: God does not "drag" "all men". If he did, everyone would be saved. No sir,He draws(tugs) at the heart of all men by the record of what He did on Calvary and by His Holy Spirit which convinces the world of sin, righteousness and judgment. Felix felt that tug on his heart "while he reasoned of temperance, righteousness and judgement to come" as Paul was giving him the gospel. The man trembled, sir. Quite sure the "judgment" part brought that on. But he said "go thy way": he resisted. The Holy Spirit can be "grieved" and "resisted" sir, because God gives us the choice. And again, that is not weakness on God's part. He puts rejectors in hell in the end.
Do I have evil thoughts? Sadly, yes.
Do I sin? Sadly, yes.
Do I still have a stony heart? Gloriously, no.
Actually, the Greek word used for 'draw' in John 6:44 and John 12:32 means to literally drag off.
It is used in John 18:10 when Peter drew the sword. Also in John 21:11 when Peter dragged the net full of fish to shore. Also used when Paul and Silas were dragged into the street in Acts 16:19.
The Greek word helko is used in all those verses.
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SheepWhisperer
Active Member
So, when you do sin, are you "dragged" away toward that sin?
James 1:14 – But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Sir, God saved me through preaching from a King James Bible. That's all I know. I don't read or understand Greek. But I can comprehend just enough English to understand that "draw" and "drawn" sometimes means ":attracted". When the Holy Spirit is dealing with a man's heart, via the Word of God, that person is not "dragged" physically, mentally, or any other way. When Paul preached to Felix, Felix was being "drawn", "attracted" by the Holy Ghost as he reasoned of "Temperance, righteousness and judgment", and he "trembled".....HE was afraid....."under conviction" BECAUSE I'm quite sure Brother Paul mentioned HELL. THAT was the working, "drawing" of the Holy Ghost as sure as I'm breathing. But the man said "some other time" He put it off bro.
And when he [the Holy Ghost] is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: John 16:8
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Brother, the Greek word helko means to literally drag off. Not that it literally drags us kicking and screaming to God, but He effectually draws us to Himself. What James 1:14 means is sin effectually draws us to it when we are enticed.
Did the net resist Peter kicking and screaming as he effectually drew it to shore? Of course not. It(helko) means as Peter effectually dragged it, the net came. Did the sword resist Peter kicking and screaming as he drew it from its scabbard? Of course not. It(helko) means as Peter effectually drew it from its scabbard, the sword came. When God draws, He drags us, not kicking and screaming, but by implication, this dragging means He effectually draws us to Himself.
Please find another translation than the KJV. It will cause you more confusion. I highly recommend the NASB and/or NIV.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon:
helkuō / helkō
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
To draw by an inward power. Now, how are ppl drawn by God to God? Via the gospel. Unless one has heard the gospel, they can't be saved. That's why John 12:32 can't mean 'all w/o exception' are drawn. Many have died never hearing the gospel of the Christ. Ppl quickly misapply Romans 1:20, but that verse describes man's eternal ruin outside the Christ. So, John 6:44 can be stated like this..."No man can come to Me except My Father who sent Me draws them by an inward power."
helkuō / helkō
1) to draw, drag off
2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel
To draw by an inward power. Now, how are ppl drawn by God to God? Via the gospel. Unless one has heard the gospel, they can't be saved. That's why John 12:32 can't mean 'all w/o exception' are drawn. Many have died never hearing the gospel of the Christ. Ppl quickly misapply Romans 1:20, but that verse describes man's eternal ruin outside the Christ. So, John 6:44 can be stated like this..."No man can come to Me except My Father who sent Me draws them by an inward power."
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
That reminds me of a contention you and I had earlier about how God "get the message to them somehow" or something to that effect; remember? I'm sorry I failed to elaborate then, I will show an example of when this was actually done.......and what I want you to pay attention to is WHAT was happening BEFORE Philip arrived.
Act 8:26
¶
And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act 8:27
And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28
Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29
Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot............
Somehow, this man was SEARCHING for answers and God intervened, making sure this man heard the Gospel. I'm not saying God sends an angel every time; that's not the point. The point is that the man was hungry and searching the word of God BEFORE he heard the Gospel, SO God Almighty arranged for him to hear it. :
He had been to Jerusalem to worship, so it appears he was a proselyte Jew. So, he knew something about God.
Remember, this Ethiopian eunuch had been to Jerusalem for worship. He was probably a proselyte Jew, imo. Now, neither of us knows how much he knew, but he was reading from the book of Isaiah, so he had some of the OT scrolls(at least one scroll was in his possession) to read from. The reason I came at you the way I did was because you grossly misapplied Romans 1:20. That verse doesn't mean that ppl can know God via natural revelation, but that man stands w/o excuse whilst they are outside the Christ. Man can know there is a 'god' by looking at all that surrounds him, but none of this shows him the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of the Christ, and that He will come against on the last day. Man knows there is a 'god' even in remote areas. Look at all the idols in the world today.
But man who has never heard of the Christ, never heard the gospel, can know God. No one can know Him but through His Son. That's what Jesus meant when He said “I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me."[John 14:6] And also "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."[John 17:3] The only way they can truly know God, God the Father in proper context here, is that they know the Son. No one who has never heard the gospel, has known the Christ, and none who don't know the Christ, knows God, the Father.
And again, he had at least one OT scroll, Isaiah, and God can use His word to bring ppl to spiritual life.
But ppl in remote areas that have never heard of the Christ, or His gospel, do not wake up one day and through natural revelation realize that God came as a man, lived a perfect life, died in the stead of sinners, rose three days later, ascended to His Father, and is coming again on the last day. Those who know the Christ, know Him through the word of God. Those who know the Christ, know His Father, too.
Brother, don't take this as me being harsh, as that is not my intent.
You have no excuse for not knowing Greek. There are too many resources available online. Look, I haven't been to seminary, neither have I had one class of Greek, so I have had to learn what little I know the hard way. I have used Thayer's and Strong's, as that is all I can understand at this juncture.
Dr. William Mounce has "Greek for the rest of us", that I am getting the wifey to get me for Christmas. It has two DVD's(I think its 2, but could only be 1) and has a chart with the Greek alphabet and other goodies with it. Look into getting this.
Also, please steer clear of the KJV. It's a grand old bible, but its days are past. None of us speak 17th century Elizabethan English in today's world...unless you do Shakespere's plays.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
Brother, I look up Greek words sometimes but, I was born in an English-speaking country to English-speaking parents and by the providence of God a sufficient Bible was translated into this language circa 1611. Then on May, 11, 1986, I heard a sermon on the passage below, the Church sang "Love Lifted Me" and I made my way to the altar calling on Jesus name before I could get out into the aisle. My life has never been the same. Thanks, but I will just stick with what I know..
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
The Lord is my shepherd; I shall not want.
2 He maketh me to lie down in green pastures: he leadeth me beside the still waters.
3 He restoreth my soul: he leadeth me in the paths of righteousness for his name's sake.
4 Yea, though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil: for thou art with me; thy rod and thy staff they comfort me.
5 Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies: thou anointest my head with oil; my cup runneth over.
6 Surely goodness and mercy shall follow me all the days of my life: and I will dwell in the house of the Lord for ever.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
......and though the words don't rhyme, there is no more beautiful poetry(in the English language) than this; "Shakespeare" doesn't even come close, for me.
Psalm 19{To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
Psalm 19{To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David.}
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork.
2Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge.
3There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.
4Their line is gone out through all the earth, and their words to the end of the world. In them hath he set a tabernacle for the sun,
5Which is as a bridegroom coming out of his chamber, and rejoiceth as a strong man to run a race.
6His going forth is from the end of the heaven, and his circuit unto the ends of it: and there is nothing hid from the heat thereof.
7The law of the LORD is perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD is sure, making wise the simple.
8The statutes of the LORD are right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD is pure, enlightening the eyes.
9The fear of the LORD is clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD are true and righteous altogether.
10More to be desired are they than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
11Moreover by them is thy servant warned: and in keeping of them there is great reward.
12Who can understand his errors? cleanse thou me from secret faults.
13Keep back thy servant also from presumptuous sins; let them not have dominion over me: then shall I be upright, and I shall be innocent from the great transgression.
14Let the words of my mouth, and the meditation of my heart, be acceptable in thy sight, O LORD, my strength, and my redeemer.
SheepWhisperer
Active Member
I know the Bible tells us to "lean not unto our own understanding" but, God does expect us to "reason" at least a little bit. When you are "without excuse" for either doing or failing to do something, it was because YOU had the means to do otherwise. AND in this case Romans 1: 20 TELLS you what that knowledge and means was. Now HOW knowledge of Christ was dispersed, God only knows. Maybe the Gospel did make it to remote places like Australia and the Americas, who knows.
Brother, you are not picking up what I am laying down. Ppl are w/o excuse if they are outside of the Christ, period. End of discussion.
Now, natural revelation reveals to ppl there is a 'god', but in and of itself, it doesn't reveal the Christ to them. It takes more than the sun, moon, stars, the universe to reveal the true God of the bible to them.
You are teetering upon the RCC and their anti-sola scriptura stance. Faith comes "from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ."[Romans 10:17] If ppl haven't heard this word they have no faith. Look at Abraham. When he was is Ur, he was a pagan. It can be proven by Joshua said to all the people, “Thus says the LORD, the God of Israel, ‘From ancient times your fathers lived beyond the River, namely, Terah, the father of Abraham and the father of Nahor, and they served other gods.[Joshua 24:2] He hadn't heard about God, had no scrolls to read and was not looking for the true God. They served idols. It was when God came to him, we see a miraculous thing happen to him "ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS CREDITED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.”[Romans 4:3] Look at how Apostle Paul wrote that(or had it dictated). Abram believed God(had faith) and it was credited to him for righteousness. There is no such thing as a dormant faith. If one has faith, the very instant they have it, they are saved. So, ppl do not have faith prior to being saved. So, the lost do not have innate faith, and its just sitting inside them waiting for it to be exercised. So, if ppl in remote areas don't have bibles, don't have missionaries come to them with the gospel, they can't have faith. If they can't have faith, they can't be saved, seeing The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, “ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU.”[Galatians 3:8]
Now, here is how ppl are brought to saving faith...For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. Then there's For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.[1 Corinthians 1:21] And lastly In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation--having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise.[Ephesians 1:13] In all three verses, the context of those coming to saving faith, did so via the gospel. And natural revelation does not declare the gospel of the Christ.
Mark Corbett
Active Member
I want to let you all know that I have started a thread which I admit is somewhat similar to this one, but which focuses more specifically on the relationship between foreknowledge and predestination as seen in two passages, namely Romans 8:29 and 1 Peter 1:1-2. If you want to read my OP feel free to either come back and discuss it in this thread or to discuss it in its own thread. I've read through the comments here and it sounds like this is a fruitful discussion. Here is the link to my OP along with a graphic "preview" of what it is about:
Predestination and Foreknowledge
Predestination and Foreknowledge