Predestination/Double Predestination, No Difference.

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
Predestination, before creation results in the salvation of some, the condemnation of others.

Here we go again with same old tired, worn-out, wrong argumentative point. God graciously saving some from the road to hell does not result in others going to hell. They were going to hell anyway.

Ken
A Spurgeonite</font>[/QUOTE]Here we go again with same old tired, worn-out, wrong argumentative "people". "Saying that" God's graciously saving some from the road to hell does not result in others going to hell. They were going to hell anyway. They are wrong, they are unscriptural and they are foolish.

I am just as tired of your old tired, worn out misconceptions as you are of what you suppose are mine mine. (Take a nap, get some vitamins, hush even) You do have options, use them rather than continue to suffer...

Brother Ken, i'll bet that you are a very nice fellow. I would even bet that if we met in person that we could be friends. At least that would be my desire. My responses to you are not personal, they are in response to the things that you say. Nothing more, nothing less.

[ October 31, 2002, 03:11 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Bible-belted]

What's this, 3 threads on this topic??

Can't we just pick one and discuss it there? it isn't like carrying on multiple conversations of the same topic is going to add clarity to the issue.

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
I would even bet that if we met in person that we could be friends.

Okay, Chappie, I've had all I can stands, I can't stands no more. I may not be no doctor but I've done runned out of patience. I'm a-calling you out to the back alley - Scripture verses at 10 paces, tea and crumpets afterwards.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 31, 2002, 03:23 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Robert J Hutton]

Warm Christian greetings!

Ken Hamilton and Brother Glen are both absolutely right. Double Predestination (or the Double Decree as it is also known) is not taught in the Bible.

By rights we all deserve eternal torment in Hell; but God in His mercy chose a people before the foundation of the world (and before you get mad at me please read Ephesians 1 v 4); the rest He has passed over to allow them to follow their own course and end up in their own place.

It is extremely unfair to say, or at best to give the impression, that all Calvinists believe in the Double Decree, we do not. (Some Calvinists do, but that is their problem!).

We have been through all these arguments before. My advice to those who reject the doctrine of election is to ask themselves one simple question - why did you become a Christian when many others who heard the same message didn't?

The answer is found in John 6 v 44.

Kind regards

Robert J Hutton

 

[Frogman]

This double predestination idea is the logical conclusion to the doctrine of predestination. But, careful thought and study will show it to be untrue for reasons stated above. (All members of Adam's race deserve condemnation).

It seems as though some fall into a category we view in scripture at Romans 1.18-32. It is nothing to them that they are bound for hell, they have no capacity to consider anything beyond satisfaction of the flesh. (vs. 32)

I have known at least one person who if I were given the choice would never receive the salvation of God. However, in the Love, Grace and Mercy of God, this individual is not even counted out until God counts him out. My prefrences are nothing to God, he is seeking his own glory and cares not for my attitudes.

This particular person has been witnessed to by many and continues to destroy families only replying he will save a front roll seat in hell for as many as do provide witness. (As I said above, I believe this individual is a part of the group describe being given over to a reprobate mind in Rom. 1.18-32). Nevertheless, this is not my choice, and is made solely on the fact of the fruit of his life.

Some are dealt with and saved others are not, this is the work of God and it is marvellous in our sight.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

[ October 31, 2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[KenH]

Brother Dallas,

I ran across a man on another board who was an agnostic who believed in evolution. In conversations in a forum about creation, he stated that even if there is a God, he had no interest in a worshipping and obeying a God who commanded to be worshipped and obeyed.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[Ray Berrian]

Neither Esau or Jacob were always saintly. Do you remember who was the 'deceiver?' I know God does not think 'deception' is a godly virtue.

The Bible says that both men were the sons of the promise. Note: Hebrews 11:20. Also, both men were 'marked in the flesh' and made a part of the Israelite nation and children of God. Funny how Esau is listed among the saints of the Old Covenant in Hebrews 11:20. Guess the author made a mistake. {just kidding}.

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ray Berrian:
Funny how Esau is listed among the saints of the Old Covenant in Hebrews 11:20. Guess the author made a mistake. {just kidding}.

Now we know why the author of Hebrews didn't want his name attached to the book...

 

[Ray Berrian]

npetrelly,

Good point! I like your sense of humor in the midst of serious discussion.

Ray

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:

It seems as though some fall into a category we view in scripture at Romans 1.18-32. It is nothing to them that they are bound for hell, they have no capacity to consider anything beyond satisfaction of the flesh. (vs. 32)

This particular person has been witnessed to by many and continues to destroy families only replying he will save a front roll seat in hell for as many as do provide witness. (As I said above, I believe this individual is a part of the group describe being given over to a reprobate mind in Rom. 1.18-32). Nevertheless, this is not my choice, and is made solely on the fact of the fruit of his life.

Some are dealt with and saved others are not, this is the work of God and it is marvellous in our sight.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

The scriptures that you referr to not only deal with God turning one over to a reprobate mind, but it also contrasts the attributes of one that is turned over to those of one that is not turned. It specifically tells us why God condems to hell.

It has nothing to do with not being chosen. Let me find and post it.

Romans 1:29/31 is often used by Calvinist as an example of the total depravity of man. Here I will demonstrate that their use of these passages as such is unscriptural.

Rom 1:19-32
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Verse 20 God states that the evidences of creation are enough to reveal his power and Godhead. Yet in verse 21, god speaks of men that when they knew God, refused to glorify him, and were not thankful to him; Instead they became vain, as a result of this vanity their heart is darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

Professing themselves to be wise, they changed the glory of God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Because of this:

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Because they changed the glory of God into the worship of idols, God gave them up to vile affections. If God gave them up as a result of what they did, to do things that were a consequence of their actions, these passages represent the actions of one that God has turned over to a reprobate mind. The following verses describe the condition of one that God has turned over to a reprobate mind.

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

All men are conceived in sin, but the reprobate mind is not covered by that condition of sin.

II Th 2:10-12
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

Who are those that perish, (V10) Those that received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Now unless God has a double standard, predestination, and election are not involved in salvation..

[ October 31, 2002, 05:27 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Who are those that perish, (V10) Those that received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Now unless God has a double standard, predestination, and election are not involved in salvation

Only the elect are regenerated so that they can receive the love of the truth from God.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

[ October 31, 2002, 05:25 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

[Frogman]

This may be too deep than some are "willing" to study, but here goes.

God does in fact have a revealed will and a secret will.

Why is it said of the same man, (Pharoah), that on occassion he hardened his heart and at other times, God hardened his heart.

The fact of the matter is nothing can be proved from your position Chappie, unless we can (ctrl + x) Rom. 8.7.

We are not dealing with anything more than a total depraved humanity. God does not have a double standard, only His standard. His thoughts are not our thoughts, though our human emotions cannot comprehend his decrees, God operates not on emotion, but according to His Will.

We can never get far in a discussion when one party cannot see the total enmity against God into which we are born. We are born this, we are not made this. Adam and Eve fell, we inherited. WE were not created, but procreated (or better reproduced), this is why the fall occurred before the birth of any children, to prevent the scenarios you continually offer up.

All are sinners all are lost, those God chooses are regenerated, according to the praise of the glory of His grace.

Because all are sinners and all are lost, the will of man is not competent to choose anything but to continually add sin upon sin, upon sin, until, and unless the Holy Spirit is sent forth into the heart of any 'one' individual for the express purpose of regeneration, and this by the Will of God, not man. This is accomplished only in the time God decides, no man is capable of deciding anything, but to follow in the steps of Cain and add sin onto his already depraved nature.

It is not a paramount question you are posing, These things are settled in Heaven in the court of the Godhead, He has counselled together with Himself, and has determined the end from the beginning. To view it any other way makes Him less than Omniscient.

To make Him anything less, views Him as sitting upon His throne wringing His hands because this creature, man, (though endowed with a rational mind), continually rebels against His decrees and purposes. He is not surprised by this, it is because of this there had to be one covenanted with possessing the nature of God to take upon the body prepared for Him to be the mediator between man and God and thus reconcile man to God. This is the simple Gospel as the Bible proclaims it everywhere.

Why this cannot be viewed as simply as it is almost evades my understanding, then I look at my children. I have three, a 12, 10 and four year old. My 10 yr. old was saved this past summer, he just joined the church recently. I would have thought, ( and in fact did think my eldest would be saved first because he possesses more of a "searching" mind, more given to serious study etc. The younger spends the bulk of his time in any pursuit that offers itself for inspection, God's ways are not my ways).

We try too often to limit God to human reason and emotion. We ought not do this.

Your exposition on Romans fails to consider the fact that a relationship with God is not in view, but that a knowledge of God as creator. Also would ultimately lead one down a path to believing any and all approaches to God are suitable, (i.e. through pagan, idol worship). The bible says in vs. 32 (paraphrased: Even knowing the judgement of God against these things those who do them continue in them and not only this, but have pleasure in them that do them). This cannot be speaking of anyone who has a true relationship with God by Grace through faith in Christ. Those individuals are chastened and will repent, not able to continuously pursue such a sinful lifestyle.

[edited to correct spelling]

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

[ October 31, 2002, 06:10 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[KenH]

Excellent post, Brother Dallas.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
Who are those that perish, (V10) Those that received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. Now unless God has a double standard, predestination, and election are not involved in salvation

Only the elect are regenerated so that they can receive the love of the truth from God.

Ken
A Spurgeonite </font>[/QUOTE]Possibly, but the passages in question certaintly have nothing to say concerning that conclusion. Your real problem is that everybody can read Ken.. So when you say something far out, everybody thinks. Doesn't he know that other people can read...
Got anything significant to add Ken?

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Why this cannot be viewed as simply as it is almost evades my understanding, then I look at my children. I have three, a 12, 10 and four year old. My 10 yr. old was saved this past summer, he just joined the church recently. I would have thought, ( and in fact did think my eldest would be saved first because he possesses more of a "searching" mind, more given to serious study etc. The younger spends the bulk of his time in any pursuit that offers itself for inspection, God's ways are not my ways).

Bro Dallas:
I was actually reading and seriously considering your post. Then you go and say, "My 10 yr. old was saved this past summer, he just joined the church recently. I would have thought, ( and in fact did think my eldest would be saved first because he possesses more of a "searching" mind, more given to serious study etc".

Did you save them, have you examined and considered their hearts. Please do not take this the wrong way, but Jeffery Dahmers father said that he was a good boy. Please believe that I do not mean that offensively, but just to demonstrate that you have absolutely no way of knowing who is and who is not saved.

If one day Christ says to your son, depart from me, ye that do iniquity; I never knew you. Are you going to step forward and say, not so lord; you saved him in the summer of 2002. Does God owe you the salvation of your children because he supposedly elected you.

Take a deep breath, relax; now back to the scriptures. Did you find evidence of your kid's salvation in the same place that you found election. Lord you saved me, so you have to take my children..

If you could not figure out which one of your children would be saved first, what makes you think that you can figure out who is and who is not saved. Do not make foolish statements like that, even the scriptures deny you that knowledge. Please do not bring up that "You will know them by their fruit.

I have Children also.. Nuff said...

[ October 31, 2002, 08:29 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Frogman]

Please do not bring up that "You will know them by their fruit.

What should I do, throw out all scripture? What is scripture?

No, God does not owe to me the salvation of my children, my wife, mother, nor anyone else. That is my point. Salvation is given at the discretion of God.

I have tried to show that regardless of the "who," and how they are emotionally tied to me, when in heaven, all I nor anyone else will be permitted to feel sorrow for the absence of any of our loved ones.

I did not mean to imply my children were or are good, on the contrary, I know they are not. My point was, according to the reasoning of man, the one child who possesses the greatest inclination to "study" and use of his reason has yet to feel the irrisistable Grace of God. That is the difference between the two children. The nature is the same.

I believe sufficient is stated in scripture to permit me to have confidence in the profession of faith, especially when one, regardless of age, is drawn to repentance without pointed coaxing.

One who believes in the will of man as the means to elevate his depraved nature, probably would not be able to comprehend that, though. This is how the doctrines you are espousing confuse so many.

As I have said before, I do not take offence from any of your postings. My own brother (according to the flesh) has called me part of the antichrist because of my beleif, when in fact it is the hope of the antichrist that men will continue to believe they are able to "better" themselves.

Did my son get saved because I have prayed for this to happen? No. He was saved because the Son of God accepted (the only accepting ever done) the Will of the Father and took my son's place, did my son receive salvation because he cried out to the Lord? or had faith? No. He received all this as a gift from God, who acted upon his will and performed the work.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> Please do not bring up that "You will know them by their fruit.

What should I do, throw out all scripture? What is scripture?

No, God does not owe to me the salvation of my children, my wife, mother, nor anyone else. That is my point. Salvation is given at the discretion of God.

I have tried to show that regardless of the "who," and how they are emotionally tied to me, when in heaven, all I nor anyone else will be permitted to feel sorrow for the absence of any of our loved ones.

I did not mean to imply my children were or are good, on the contrary, I know they are not. My point was, according to the reasoning of man, the one child who possesses the greatest inclination to "study" and use of his reason has yet to feel the irrisistable Grace of God. That is the difference between the two children. The nature is the same.

I believe sufficient is stated in scripture to permit me to have confidence in the profession of faith, especially when one, regardless of age, is drawn to repentance without pointed coaxing.

One who believes in the will of man as the means to elevate his depraved nature, probably would not be able to comprehend that, though. This is how the doctrines you are espousing confuse so many.

As I have said before, I do not take offence from any of your postings. My own brother (according to the flesh) has called me part of the antichrist because of my beleif, when in fact it is the hope of the antichrist that men will continue to believe they are able to "better" themselves.

Did my son get saved because I have prayed for this to happen? No. He was saved because the Son of God accepted (the only accepting ever done) the Will of the Father and took my son's place, did my son receive salvation because he cried out to the Lord? or had faith? No. He received all this as a gift from God, who acted upon his will and performed the work.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas</font>[/QUOTE]You are a fine fellow Bro Dallas as best I can tell. I pray that you are truely one of the elect of God. And I pray that your children will be drawn to a saving knowledge of God's Grace. Stranger things do happen. Remember Cornileous(sp) and his family. You know who i'm tqalking about...

As I have said before, I do not take offence from any of your postings. My own brother (according to the flesh) has called me part of the antichrist because of my beleif, when in fact it is the hope of the antichrist that men will continue to believe they are able to "better" themselves.

There must be two of them then, the Jehova's wittnesses say that's who I am...

May God bless

[ October 31, 2002, 11:05 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Got anything significant to add Ken?

Not at this moment. Why?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[npetreley]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
Excellent post, Brother Dallas.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

I'll second that. (Or third it, or whatever - I haven't read all the rest to see where I am in line...)

 

[Frogman]

Thanks Chappie for your complement and for your prayers, nevertheless, pray not for surety of my election...this is sure.. Rom. 8.16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." and 2 Tim. 1.12: "For which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Rather pray I would stay humble to the Will of God.

Again, May God richly bless you in your life and walk with Him.

Bro. Dallas.