Predestination/Double Predestination, No Difference.

Ray:
Excellent post .
I was impressed by the wisdom and simplicity of your post. Too often we try to make the scriptures complicated. Many times when we arrive at illogical and unsubstantiated conclusions concerning scripture, we fall back on the complexity of the mind of God. Granted, no man is capable of comprehending the mind, but that does not matter: He is fully capable of comprehending the mind of man. If we are high school math, the fact that God is advanced calculus does not prevent him from commucating with us in high school math.

God is a great mystery to us, yet his revelations to us should not be. They are simple, straight forward, and to the point. If one can read and studies the bible, the 12 year seminary student has little advantage on him when it comes to an ability to understand God.

Anyway, just wanted to say good post. I believe that wisdom reveals itself in simplicity.

 

As you wish, it is my blessing...

 

Greetings, and May God bless:
Absolutely right, quite an impressive claim to make for one that can only see darkly. With so few passages in scripture that deal with predestination, and their specificity in what is being predestined; my real problem is understanding how it could be projected out to mean salvation when specifically stated is that the elect of God will be conformed into the image of Christ. That's right, the elect; believers. How we arrive at being the elect of God is not dealt with in these passages, for that information we have to look elsewhere.

Yet, concerning predestination and double predestination: Trying to remove double predestination out of predestination is like trying to take the wet out of water. If you manage to accomplish it, what you have left is neither one.. When you can explain the wet out of water, then you might have a chance of explaining the double out of predestination. You accept one, you got them both. It is what it is, no matter what you believe..

Your analogy violates the revealed nature of God and what he has raveled that he holds as righteous, just and holy. Your have stated your position admirably and with clarity, yet if that is what God meant, his skills at communications are better than yours. And the scriptures never make any slimily of the comments that you have made.

I do not know what all Calvinist believe. Nor is that my claim. Even if I believed it; a consequence of predestination is double predestination. Your effort to explain it away will not/does not withstand the scrutiny of reality.

As I am but one half of this equation, I can only give you one half of the answer. I can tell you why I accepted, for the other half of your answer you have to ask someone that did not believe.

Your passage speaks of people being drawn to Christ, it does not say that only the elect are predestinated. That's your problem; you so desperately want the passage to say more than it actually says. If that is what it said, we could all read it for ourselves, but alas, it is not there.

Brothers in Christ.

[ November 02, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

1) You saying that doesn't make it so. Prove it.

2) It is not. People go to hell without being predestined. If God never predestined anything, people would still go to hell.

Ken
A Spurgeonite </font>[/QUOTE]Gooooooooood morning Kenneth!!!
Probably afternoon in Eldorado. That is not absolutely true is it. You forget about freewill persuasion as opposd to irresistible force. There, you have been proven wrong... Hummmm, did I brush my teeth?

 

God uses irresistable Grace, not force.

Irresistable force is used by militants, governments, political ideological revolutionaries, etc.

Ex: The entrance in our recent past into a home of unarmed citizens, by an armed, special forces team, to extract a six year old, whose mother had died in the attempt to provide her child a future in our great land of the brave and free. That is more correctly irrisistable force. (I think I continually mispell that word irresistable??)

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas</font>[/QUOTE]It's ok. Bro Dallas, when I get two thoughts into my head at the same time, I can't even spell my name. Can't type either....

I refer you to my example of separating wet from water. Irresistible is irretrievable linked to force. Saying it aint true just does not disprove reality…

 

Bro Glenn;
In understanding scripture, just how far away from what is said is far enough. What is too far? My point. Scriptures that deal with predestination say absolutely nothing about electing people out of every kindred, nation, tongue and people to live with God in heaven.

It does not say that. No it does not!!!! It states that they were predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ that he may be the first born among many sons. I know that you know that. How on earth can we get one out of the other without damaging the integerity of scripture...

If you can project it to mean live with him in heaven, why cannot I project it out to mean live with him in Ft. Worth, Texas.

If it does not predetermine any other action than what it did, that act is the predetermined conformation of believers into the image of Christ. Now if you want me to leave it alone, you leave it alone also.

This is such an ungodly and erroneous conclusion that I do not even see why one should even respond. After a statement like that , nobody is going to believe anything that you have to say anyway.

Your remarks are blasphemy. You attribute the works of Satan to God.. I will take my chances, your remarks are blasphemy.

If he predetermined their sin and then put them in hell for their sin, that's double predestination in and of itself. (Sin & hell. Sin #1 & Hell, that's #2)

What do you mean, Adams sin?? You said that God did it...

Brother Glenn, in love I say to you, you need to do some serious studying out from under the influence of Calvinism. Preyerfully everyone will undestand my motives in telling you this, even the calvinist; because you do not even present a coherient representation of Calvinism.

To attribute the works of Satan unto God "is" blasphemy... Brother you are getting close to the unpardonable sin. You do not owe John Calvin that much...

First you say:
"He did not predestinate any other action of mankind good or evil".

Then you say:
"God Absolutely Predestinated every thing man will ever do both good and evil".

Can you see that you cannot get a coherient theology out of the tulip??

[ November 02, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

This would be impossible...or else one of the flock could not be carried through.

Certainly the view you hold is not leading you to believe our salvation can thus be lost? Of Course, anything based on the desire of the depraved will of man would certainly not be capable of creating of itself the ability to perservere. Anything at all designated as eternal, would it not be eternal?

Only if performed in eternity, from the will of God, having for its influence only the will of God.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas</font>[/QUOTE]I have not seen what names are written in the book of life. I assume nothing. Depart from me, ye that do inquity, i never knew you..

 

Really? I find devil's food cake irresistible, and I'm for certain going to have a piece, but I'm not forced to eat it.

Irresistible is only force when someone is made to do something they don't want to do. Someone can be drawn irresistibly to something without force as long as that something is made to be so attractive that they would never refuse it.</font>[/QUOTE]The anology with the cake is kinda silly and not well thought out.

Your final discourse, i would only ask that you set beside it your deffinition of the totally depraved person of man. You know, the ones tht hate God. That fight untill God get's busy with some irresistible grace. I understood this to be your position on all men.

You guys cannot remember that you are adding 2 + 2 together, long enough to put the 4 on paper.

 

Funny you should bring this up. I do not have scriptural proof, but I can produce a scriptural leaning that says that the real equation is not 1+1+1=1, but rather 1 X 1 X 1=1.

Anyway, the example that i gave was not in reality the correct one as it applied only to Calvins ability to carry any equation through to its logical conclusion.

Side issues are not important at this juncture. You made a mess Bro Dallas, you really ought to clean it up. People are reading what is posted here. Woe unto that man that causeth one of these little ones to stumble.

May God bless you