Predestination/Double Predestination, No Difference.

[Ray Berrian]

Frogman,

God does not give salvation at His own discreation. That idea is antithetical to the Bible and flies in the face of God who died on the Cross for all of His lost creation. God give salvation to all who believe. [John 3:16]

Adam's sin caused all humans to receive the Adamic nature. [Romans 5:18.

If Christ caused us all to fall in Adam and we did, then it is His just and holy nature that caused Him to make possible ' . . . justification to life' for everyone.

Calvinists wrongfully start first with the Sovereignty of God. In theology one has to start with all of the attributes of God and at the same time keep them from conflicting with our own ideas. For example, His love and justice forbids Christ from autocratically saving some people and damning the majority. Love and justice are only two of His Divine attributes.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Ray:
Excellent post .
I was impressed by the wisdom and simplicity of your post. Too often we try to make the scriptures complicated. Many times when we arrive at illogical and unsubstantiated conclusions concerning scripture, we fall back on the complexity of the mind of God. Granted, no man is capable of comprehending the mind, but that does not matter: He is fully capable of comprehending the mind of man. If we are high school math, the fact that God is advanced calculus does not prevent him from commucating with us in high school math.

God is a great mystery to us, yet his revelations to us should not be. They are simple, straight forward, and to the point. If one can read and studies the bible, the 12 year seminary student has little advantage on him when it comes to an ability to understand God.

Anyway, just wanted to say good post. I believe that wisdom reveals itself in simplicity.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
Thanks Chappie for your complement and for your prayers, nevertheless, pray not for surety of my election...this is sure.. Rom. 8.16: "The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God." and 2 Tim. 1.12: "For which cause I also suffer these things: nevertheless I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day."

Rather pray I would stay humble to the Will of God.

Again, May God richly bless you in your life and walk with Him.

Bro. Dallas.

As you wish, it is my blessing...

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Robert J Hutton:
Warm Christian greetings!

Ken Hamilton and Brother Glen are both absolutely right. Double Predestination (or the Double Decree as it is also known) is not taught in the Bible.

Greetings, and May God bless:
Absolutely right, quite an impressive claim to make for one that can only see darkly. With so few passages in scripture that deal with predestination, and their specificity in what is being predestined; my real problem is understanding how it could be projected out to mean salvation when specifically stated is that the elect of God will be conformed into the image of Christ. That's right, the elect; believers. How we arrive at being the elect of God is not dealt with in these passages, for that information we have to look elsewhere.

Yet, concerning predestination and double predestination: Trying to remove double predestination out of predestination is like trying to take the wet out of water. If you manage to accomplish it, what you have left is neither one.. When you can explain the wet out of water, then you might have a chance of explaining the double out of predestination. You accept one, you got them both. It is what it is, no matter what you believe..

By rights we all deserve eternal torment in Hell; but God in His mercy chose a people before the foundation of the world (and before you get mad at me please read Ephesians 1 v 4); the rest He has passed over to allow them to follow their own course and end up in their own place.

Your analogy violates the revealed nature of God and what he has raveled that he holds as righteous, just and holy. Your have stated your position admirably and with clarity, yet if that is what God meant, his skills at communications are better than yours. And the scriptures never make any slimily of the comments that you have made.

It is extremely unfair to say, or at best to give the impression, that all Calvinists believe in the Double Decree, we do not. (Some Calvinists do, but that is their problem!)

I do not know what all Calvinist believe. Nor is that my claim. Even if I believed it; a consequence of predestination is double predestination. Your effort to explain it away will not/does not withstand the scrutiny of reality.

We have been through all these arguments before. My advice to those who reject the doctrine of election is to ask themselves one simple question - why did you become a Christian when many others who heard the same message didn't?

As I am but one half of this equation, I can only give you one half of the answer. I can tell you why I accepted, for the other half of your answer you have to ask someone that did not believe.

The answer is found in John 6 v 44.

Your passage speaks of people being drawn to Christ, it does not say that only the elect are predestinated. That's your problem; you so desperately want the passage to say more than it actually says. If that is what it said, we could all read it for ourselves, but alas, it is not there.

Brothers in Christ.

[ November 02, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
1)Trying to remove double predestination out of predestination is like trying to take the wet out of water.

2)Even if I believed it; a consequence of predestination is double predestination.

1) You saying that doesn't make it so. Prove it.

2) It is not. People go to hell without being predestined. If God never predestined anything, people would still go to hell.

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Ken Hamilton:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Chappie:
1)Trying to remove double predestination out of predestination is like trying to take the wet out of water.

2)Even if I believed it; a consequence of predestination is double predestination.

1) You saying that doesn't make it so. Prove it.

2) It is not. People go to hell without being predestined. If God never predestined anything, people would still go to hell.

Ken
A Spurgeonite </font>[/QUOTE]Gooooooooood morning Kenneth!!!
Probably afternoon in Eldorado. That is not absolutely true is it. You forget about freewill persuasion as opposd to irresistible force. There, you have been proven wrong... Hummmm, did I brush my teeth?

 

[Frogman]

irresistible force.

God uses irresistable Grace, not force.

irresistable force is used by militants, governments, political ideological revolutionaries, etc.

Ex: The entrance in our recent past into a home of unarmed citizens, by an armed, special forces team, to extract a six year old, whose mother had died in the attempt to provide her child a future in our great land of the brave and free. That is more correctly irrisistable force. (I think I continually mispell that word irresistable??)

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[Frogman]

Excellent post, Brother Dallas.

Thanks for your comment brother. Continue to pray for my humility before God.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />irresistible force.

God uses irresistable Grace, not force.

Irresistable force is used by militants, governments, political ideological revolutionaries, etc.

Ex: The entrance in our recent past into a home of unarmed citizens, by an armed, special forces team, to extract a six year old, whose mother had died in the attempt to provide her child a future in our great land of the brave and free. That is more correctly irrisistable force. (I think I continually mispell that word irresistable??)

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas</font>[/QUOTE]It's ok. Bro Dallas, when I get two thoughts into my head at the same time, I can't even spell my name. Can't type either....

I refer you to my example of separating wet from water. Irresistible is irretrievable linked to force. Saying it aint true just does not disprove reality…

 

[KenH]

Originally posted by Chappie:
Irresistible is irretrievable linked to force

Is a person's attendance on the Day of Judgment irresistible? Is the condemnation of those that go to hell irresistible?

Ken
A Spurgeonite

 

[russell55]

Irresistible is irretrievable linked to force.

Really? I find devil's food cake irresistible, and I'm for certain going to have a piece, but I'm not forced to eat it.

Irresistible is only force when someone is made to do something they don't want to do. Someone can be drawn irresistibly to something without force as long as that something is made to be so attractive that they would never refuse it.

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Predestination to me as of the Primitive Baptist brethren means... A destination before time!... God elected a people before time out of every kindred, tongue, nation, and people to live with him in heaven, because of his love.

Bro Glenn;
In understanding scripture, just how far away from what is said is far enough. What is too far? My point. Scriptures that deal with predestination say absolutely nothing about electing people out of every kindred, nation, tongue and people to live with God in heaven.

It does not say that. No it does not!!!! It states that they were predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ that he may be the first born among many sons. I know that you know that. How on earth can we get one out of the other without damaging the integerity of scripture...

If you can project it to mean live with him in heaven, why cannot I project it out to mean live with him in Ft. Worth, Texas.

He did not predestinate any other action of mankind good or evil. I do not believe in Absolute Predestnation and the Bible does not teach it.

If it does not predetermine any other action than what it did, that act is the predetermined conformation of believers into the image of Christ. Now if you want me to leave it alone, you leave it alone also.

God Absolutely Predestinated every thing man will ever do both good and evil.

This is such an ungodly and erroneous conclusion that I do not even see why one should even respond. After a statement like that , nobody is going to believe anything that you have to say anyway.

Your remarks are blasphemy. You attribute the works of Satan to God.. I will take my chances, your remarks are blasphemy.

Neither does it teach double predestination!... God did not elect some to hell and some to heaven...

If he predetermined their sin and then put them in hell for their sin, that's double predestination in and of itself. (Sin & hell. Sin #1 & Hell, that's #2)

We were all headed for hell because of the sin of Adam and Eve.

What do you mean, Adams sin?? You said that God did it...

God only predestinated the ones he loved to heaven and left the other ones where they were. So double predestination is a word that doesn't exist!... Is this your meaning?... Brother Glen

Brother Glenn, in love I say to you, you need to do some serious studying out from under the influence of Calvinism. Preyerfully everyone will undestand my motives in telling you this, even the calvinist; because you do not even present a coherient representation of Calvinism.

To attribute the works of Satan unto God "is" blasphemy... Brother you are getting close to the unpardonable sin. You do not owe John Calvin that much...

First you say:
"He did not predestinate any other action of mankind good or evil".

Then you say:
"God Absolutely Predestinated every thing man will ever do both good and evil".

Can you see that you cannot get a coherient theology out of the tulip??

[ November 02, 2002, 09:08 PM: Message edited by: Chappie ]

 

[Frogman]

Brother you are getting close to the unpardonable sin.

This would be impossible...or else one of the flock could not be carried through.

Certainly the view you hold is not leading you to believe our salvation can thus be lost? Of Course, anything based on the desire of the depraved will of man would certainly not be capable of creating of itself the ability to perservere. Anything at all designated as eternal, would it not be eternal?

Only if performed in eternity, from the will of God, having for its influence only the will of God.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Brother you are getting close to the unpardonable sin.

This would be impossible...or else one of the flock could not be carried through.

Certainly the view you hold is not leading you to believe our salvation can thus be lost? Of Course, anything based on the desire of the depraved will of man would certainly not be capable of creating of itself the ability to perservere. Anything at all designated as eternal, would it not be eternal?

Only if performed in eternity, from the will of God, having for its influence only the will of God.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas</font>[/QUOTE]I have not seen what names are written in the book of life. I assume nothing. Depart from me, ye that do inquity, i never knew you..

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by russell55:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Irresistible is irretrievable linked to force.

Really? I find devil's food cake irresistible, and I'm for certain going to have a piece, but I'm not forced to eat it.

Irresistible is only force when someone is made to do something they don't want to do. Someone can be drawn irresistibly to something without force as long as that something is made to be so attractive that they would never refuse it.</font>[/QUOTE]The anology with the cake is kinda silly and not well thought out.

Your final discourse, i would only ask that you set beside it your deffinition of the totally depraved person of man. You know, the ones tht hate God. That fight untill God get's busy with some irresistible grace. I understood this to be your position on all men.

You guys cannot remember that you are adding 2 + 2 together, long enough to put the 4 on paper.

 

[Frogman]

You guys cannot remember that you are adding 2 + 2 together, long enough to put the 4 on paper.

That is because we continually have to deal with the logisticians who continue to add to the equation an unknown such as 2 + 2x = 4; and then they attempt to show to us the x is the depraved will of man.

All things, irresistable Grace included, are bestowed from the Father upon the Son. In this way, God the Father, knowing the second person, God the Son would be obedient, could look beyond the sacrifice of bulls and goats and view the completion of the work of His Lamb. Why? Because this work and all the Blessings to flow from that work was accomplished in eternity before the foundation of the world. When we attempt to introduce an unknown in the equation, such as is the will of man, the simplicity of the Gospel cannot be contained, and grows into such a creature attempting to arrive at the same answer which God has already decreed, but not able to follow the equation God has established, that being, God's Will + Christ's Works = Salvation to man. All, from beginning to end is of God. It is simply not a fear that many will not find their place; this is not an issue, unless we remove God's Will, and replace it with the will of man, then it is a very real issue.

edited to correct spelling.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

[ November 03, 2002, 12:55 PM: Message edited by: Frogman ]

 

[Frogman]

The equation we deal with is not 2 + 2 = 4; but

1 + 1 + 1 = 3;

God the Father + God the Son + God the Holy Spirit = The Godhead;

Maybe that is why you are having so much difficulty brother; you are working your math correctly, but using the wrong formula.

This equation results every time in the regeneration of man.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

 

[ForumChaplain]

Originally posted by Frogman:
The equation we deal with is not 2 + 2 = 4; but

1 + 1 + 1 = 3;

God the Father + God the Son + God the Holy Spirit = The Godhead;

Maybe that is why you are having so much difficulty brother; you are working your math correctly, but using the wrong formula.

This equation results every time in the regeneration of man.

God Bless.
Bro. Dallas

Funny you should bring this up. I do not have scriptural proof, but I can produce a scriptural leaning that says that the real equation is not 1+1+1=1, but rather 1 X 1 X 1=1.

Anyway, the example that i gave was not in reality the correct one as it applied only to Calvins ability to carry any equation through to its logical conclusion.

Side issues are not important at this juncture. You made a mess Bro Dallas, you really ought to clean it up. People are reading what is posted here. Woe unto that man that causeth one of these little ones to stumble.

May God bless you

 

[tyndale1946]

Originally quoted by Chappie... I find the accusation that God only loved some of those that he created in his image, to be utterly unscriptural and horrifically distasteful… I find the accusation that he loved us, and not them tantamount to heresy.

Chappie you started the post on this subject and instead of taking the scripture... Isaiah 55:[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

You use human logic to try to understand the workings of God instead of scripture. Your saying it will not make it so but then that is you I guess... Use your human logic on the crucifiction?... And believe that there are some that God never did love... As much as our human logic wants it to be so and think its unfair if it isn't there are some God did not love and never will... But there is one thing for sure that I have been saying since I've been on this board for over a year... Jesus will save all his blood bought children given to him before the foundation of the world... And none else and its not by acceptance but by grace. Those call it heresy who don't understand it and take God at his word... Brother Glen

 

[Helen]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Originally quoted by Chappie... I find the accusation that God only loved some of those that he created in his image, to be utterly unscriptural and horrifically distasteful… I find the accusation that he loved us, and not them tantamount to heresy.

Chappie you started the post on this subject and instead of taking the scripture... Isaiah 55:[8] For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.

[9] For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

You use human logic to try to understand the workings of God instead of scripture. Your saying it will not make it so but then that is you I guess... Use your human logic on the crucifiction?... And believe that there are some that God never did love... As much as our human logic wants it to be so and think its unfair if it isn't there are some God did not love and never will... But there is one thing for sure that I have been saying since I've been on this board for over a year... Jesus will save all his blood bought children given to him before the foundation of the world... And none else and its not by acceptance but by grace. Those call it heresy who don't understand it and take God at his word... Brother Glen

Glen, I think our problem is that you folks only take God on part of His Word. Have you ever stopped to think that because His ways and thoughts are higher than ours that the Calvinistic interpretation might be wrong?

You see there are other Scriptures which are also God's Word.

"Choose this day whom you will serve."

"Come, let us reason together," says the Lord,
Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be white as snow."

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. Which of you, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake? If you then THOUGH YOU ARE EVIL, now how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!"

"Come to me, all you who are weary and burdeend, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

"He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God."

"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son."

"I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty...For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."

and on and on through the entire Bible. Choose. Believe. He truly is not willing that one should perish.

Shouldn't all these verses be considered, too?