Predestination: Meaning and Application

Grace and Peace Jarthur,

Actually I'm still not getting it yet.

Would you say that an individual who witnesses a crime is the cause? The way I see it is God has graced certain creatures (Angels and man) with Free-Choice and although I agree that God is aware of who will choose because of His Omnisciense I don't see this awareness as necessarily antagonistic to one's Free-Choice anymore than I believe witnessing a crime makes one the cause. Witnessing even witnessing events beforehand is not antagonistic to one's Free-Choice. Perhaps we are arguing semantic or perhaps not but I believe that the two exist unmolested by the other because God has deemed it so.

Calvinists appear to argue 'hard determinism' which creates no moral responsibility on the part of creation if not fatalism. As a side note it makes God the author of evil which is not Biblical. Perhaps I'm not understanding the details of Calvinist Theology on this matter but at the moment I'd have to say that although I recognize that God is at work in His Creation I have to hold that a 'Good' God affords an opportunity for each individual creations to participate in His redemptive work. Yes I understand that from our perspective creation might appear to be a linear timeline in which God exercises His Providence but I believe we can't project our creaturely perspective onto God who encounters His creation in an eternal now with not beginning and no end.

I know that I could frame this better given some more reflection so if anyone doesn't grasp my issues I'd be happy to give it more thought and try again later.

Peace.

 

You are saying that Apostle Paul goes from Salvation of the Lord in verse 13 to General Revelation in verse 18 and I don't believe a word of it.

13": For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

"14": How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

"15": And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

"16": But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

"17": So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

"18":But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

To say that Apostle Paul is switching Salvation plans in 3 verses is hogwash.
but convenient and necessary if your theory is going to hold up so keep on holding on.

 

Yes, you got it bound!

I think its might be one of the best places to learn for you at least learn the Calvinist don't have it all down figured out yet, but we are working on it.

 

Bound said:

.

Unfortunately this is not the best place to 'learn' something you do not understand as you are being bombarded with opposing views here. Hopefully you will read the books I posted that are authoratative. The Sovereignty of God by Pink is online and can be printed. You will well understand after reading this book! If you love a great conflict just remain and watch, it will happen!

 

Bound,

Take this advice if you wish. But don't forget to read the Bible and ask the author what it means. If you spend too much time reading the various Calvinist authors, you leave yourself little time to read the only important book.

 

Other than the bible itself I've never seen a book with more scripture used to demonstrate points made. I read this book with the bible on my lap prior to becoming calvinist and it was one continuous 'wow'! So totally was the impact of this truth I'll never cease giving thanks to our Lord for bringing me to the doctrines of grace!

Soli deo gloria!

 

BP/T:
You said you were not going to let me off this time. Don't you ever let me off as you put it for I am going to hold your feet to the fire.

Pslams 19 don't have anything to do with Romans 10.

 

"16": But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

They were talking about the Gospel also. Is there two different Gospels or one?
The Law was a shadow of the real thing. This is the real thing now, no longer just a shadow.

But they have not all obeyed the gospel (and this) Lord, who hath believed our report? These two things are talking about the same thing, One Gospel.



Hebrews, chapter 4



"1": Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

"2": For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

"3": For we which have believed do enter into rest, as he said, As I have sworn in my wrath, if they shall enter into my rest: although the works were finished from the foundation of the world.

I learned years ago that what the bible teachers teach depends on which college you go to. Believe me and I am sure you know they go from one end of the spectrum to the other.

 

Acts 26:20-26 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

Colossians 1:4-6 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth:

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Have they not heard?

 

The Lord is my Sheppard, I shall not want,
He maketh me to lie down in green pasture
He leadeth me by the still water,
He restoreth my soul.

Though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death
I will fear no evil, for thou art with me.
Thou preparest a table before me in the presence of mine enemies, thou annointest my head with oil. My cup doeth run over.
Surely goodness and mercy will follow me all the days of my life, and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

I still use that and would say Apostle Paul did also.

Gospel is the Power of God unto Salvation and I believe in One!!!

Hebrews, chapter 4



"1": Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to come short of it.

"2": For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it.

You think Apostle Paul just for no reason at all quoted something back in Pslams, come on teacher!!! We going to have to let you go and get another one. Explain to me WHY! would Apostle Paul go back to Psalms when teaching them about hearing the word.


When did this take place??

Zechariah, chapter 13
"1": In that day there shall be a fountain opened to the house of David and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem for sin and for uncleanness.

I know that you know this is talking about the Lord don't you? The same message Apostle Paul was talking about when he said "how can they hear without a preacher". So, I don't see your point to be honest, it seems to support my posts more than yours?

 

I don't know where you get this stuff? I have never said you didn't have to believe the Gospel and if you think I did say so it was a misunderstanding. I really think you have a hard time understanding me and then have to go so far as calling it irrationality. Mine and your difference is the hearing. You believe in a human on human and I don't for Salvation is of the Lord.

You Calvinist are so strong in there being "no works" to Salvation then turn right around and say that someone else needs "your" works to be saved, like "preaching". Talk about being irrational then that is. Either you believe in works or you don't. You either believe that Jesus can do the saving or you don't. I say he don't need you or me to save someone, now if you want to put yourself in it go ahead but not me. I think you either don't want to understand because you have this set way in you mind and when questioned about it you don't know where to go.
To be honest, I don't think you are no where near as deep in the Scriptures as some of these other Calvinist think.

You skip all the Scriptures that Blammo quoted you, the ones I quoted you and there are others such as there is a Spirit in man the inspirational of God almight that giveth him understanding. Also, The Grace of God had appeared unto all men, etc. Also, Go ye not from house to house saying know ye the Lord for they shall know me from the least to the greatest. Now instead of a personal attack please explain the Scriptures. Start with how Paul mean they had heard all over the world already, ok?
I doubt if the other Calvinist on BB believe in a human on human in order to be saved or that sure would mess up being the "elect". Now which is it, the "elect" chosen by God or the human on human conversion?

1. Pslams 23, was to show you that there are plenty of Scriptures in OT used today

2. Hebrews 4, was to show you they had the Gospel same as we.

3. Romans 10 was to show you that Paul was talking about them hearing the Gospel and in verse 18 he said they have heard it all over the world. Who am I to question Apostle Paul.

4. For the life of me I don't know why you would want to just gloss over verse 18 on down in Romans 10?

Nothing irrational there but maybe I need to explain better so you can understand or go slower, I don't know please help me to know what to do to help you understand what I am saying.

 

Brother Bob,
I think this Baptist theologian fellow or whatever he is, is trying to pull your strings. Either that or this man has no rational thought pattern. Any third grader knows that the Gospel must be believed for salvation, and that it is spread by believers. You or blammo never said anything different.

 

clone? Not a clone....he is my brother.

All i ever see you post is to support Bob. I mean...not that supporting Bob is bad...but that is all you do.

But..I guess we all have our own calling.

 

Sort of like yours is to run at the first sign of adversity, then not even mean it. Was it predestined that you have thin skin, or is that your choice?

And by the way, a review of my posts compared to yours will show more addressing of Scripture than you can think of. Long posts do not equal intelligent thought.

 

It does not reverse it at all but says they have already heard now I figure Apostle is smarter than I am.

"16": But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

"17": So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

"18":But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Paul said they heard is Paul lying?

Acts 26:20-26 But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance. For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me. Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles. And as he thus spake for himself, Festus said with a loud voice, Paul, thou art beside thyself; much learning doth make thee mad. But he said, I am not mad, most noble Festus; but speak forth the words of truth and soberness. For the king knoweth of these things, before whom also I speak freely: for I am persuaded that none of these things are hidden from him; for this thing was not done in a corner.

Colossians 1:4-6 Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints, For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as it is in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as it doth also in you, since the day ye heard of it, and knew the grace of God in truth: Paul said they heard is Paul lying?

Colossians 1:23 If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;
Paul said they heard is Paul lying?

Have they not heard?

John, chapter 1


"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

I am surprised that a Calvinist would believe that the "elect" would did and go to hell because there must be a human on human.

Infants have they heard the preacher or are they all lost?

Mute, have they heard the preacher or are they all lost?

fetus have they heard the preacher or are they all lost?

Don't ask me how they heard that is why Salvation is of the Lord and not man.

 

God is in full control.

And as to this post...you have no idea what you're talking about....other then I have long post.

But I will be glad to share with the world if you wish the full story. You get the OK from the other party..and I'll start posting away, all the letters...all the post... even copies of post that have been deleted...and other things you have no idea about.

This is the 4th time you have asked...each time I over look it...in respect of the other party.

Get back with me when you get the word. deal?