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Predestination: Meaning and Application

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Jul 30, 2006.

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  1. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    Bob,

    I will chronicle for you the move you made away from orthodoxy and toward Inclusivism.
    Page 5 post #47
    This is when you started getting off track Bob. You started arguing that all had heard the gospel. By your definition having heard the gospel would mean that all have the power of God unto salvation, which I have shown you to be false. While all people have general revelation which is enough to condemn them they do not have special revelation which is the power of God unto salvation as you put it.



    By the way, this is an obscure reference to Jeremiah 31. The first verse clearly states, ““At that time, declares the Lord, I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they shall be my people.”
    Your reference to Jeremiah is given to the nation of Israel as in not to be applied on a universal scale. The closest thing to an actual quote of what you list is verse 34, “34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.” This does not in anyway teach what you are suggesting.



    You base this previous comment on Revelation 14:6. So in effect you are arguing that the millions of people in the world today in China and India are waiting on an angelic flyby to be able to reach the gospel? It seems to me that Rev. 14:6 will have historical fulfillment at a particular point in time. I am not denying that it will one day come true. What I am arguing is that in the mean time the Lord founded in the church to preach the gospel to the lost.



    Do I think that God could have touched every man? It depends on what you mean by touched. If you mean has God given special revelation to each man, then no. If you mean has God given each man sufficient revelation to condemn him, based on passages like Psalms 19, then yes.

    My response to you was as follows:
    Page 5 #49

    You really did not answer the question: "Does everyone hear the gospel? How do the ones who never heard the gospel have a chance?"

    Are you suggesting that everyone on the face of the earth has heard the gospel? What about everyone prior to Jesus?

    If it is as you suggest that God touches the hearts of individuals mystically without human preaching, that is a whole different deck of cards. Wow! Are you sure you want to go there?
    …I view the gospel of Jesus Christ, see John 3:16, as indispensable for conversion to Christ. Evidently you do not....

    Your reply was as follows:
    Page 5 #50
     
    #261 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Aug 3, 2006
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  2. Baptist_Pastor/Theologian

    Baptist_Pastor/Theologian New Member

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    Bob,

    Here is where our problem is found, you do not have a means of separating the revelation of God into two different types of revelation: General or Universal and Special or Direct. General revelation is found in Romans 1:18-25.

    18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. 19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Claiming to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
    24 Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, 25 because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

    General revelation is also found in Psalms 19:1-6:

    19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God,
    and the sky above proclaims his handiwork.
    2 Day to day pours out speech,
    and night to night reveals knowledge.
    3 There is no speech, nor are there words,
    whose voice is not heard.
    4 Their measuring line goes out through all the earth,
    and their words to the end of the world.
    In them he has set a tent for the sun,
    5 which comes out like a bridegroom leaving his chamber,
    and, like a strong man, runs its course with joy.
    6 Its rising is from the end of the heavens,
    and its circuit to the end of them,
    and there is nothing hidden from its heat.

    Therefore any time you read where there is reference to God giving revelation you automatically attribute it to the power of God to save or special revelation, when in fact the general revelation of God is more than likely what is being referenced.

    Yet in some cases Bob you simply do not know how to interpret Scripture or you miss apply what is the intended meaning. Case in point Page 23 #229:




    Believe it or not there are more options than this passage either says what you think it says or Paul is lying. Here is an option for you, you are wrong and do not know how to properly interpret Scripture. This passage is given in the context of the gospel, that is special revelation going forth. So you got that much correct. But in no way does the phrase into all the world have to mean to every single solitary soul in the world both past present and future. What is so funny is how you keep referencing passages that teach the very thing I am arguing for which is the indispensable nature of the gospel for salvation. Colossians 1:3-7 states:

    3 We always thank God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, when we pray for you, 4 since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of the love that you have for all the saints, 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel, 6 which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing—as it also does among you, since the day you heard it and understood the grace of God in truth, 7 just as you learned it from Epaphras our beloved fellow servant.

    Now what ever this passage is teaching it is not teaching Revelation 14:6. The passage is arguing that the gospel is going forth in the whole world and bearing fruit and growing. So what ever way it is going out it is producing fruit. There are no recorded revivals that broke out in South America during this time. There are no recorded revivals and churches that were recorded in India or China. The only movement we have in history associated with the gospel going out in the world at time can be traced to missionary activity, of which Paul was the lead missionary. What this passage is teaching is also less sweeping than going out into the global world, this passage is referring to the Ancient Near Eastern world of the churches recorded in book of Revelation. Paul possibly got as far as Spain with his message but that is the world that is being reference in this passage.

    Bob, you are not using sound doctrine because you do not have sound interpretations. That ultimately is your problem. I think arguing theology with you is a waste of time. What we should be arguing with you is hermeneutics, because you a hermeneutical gymnast. Really, your take on Scripture flips me out…
     
    #262 Baptist_Pastor/Theologian, Aug 3, 2006
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  3. npetreley

    npetreley New Member

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    Here's a nickel. Go buy a sense of humor.
     
    #263 npetreley, Aug 3, 2006
  4. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    post your point of the subject...other wise I guess you have nothing more to say.
     
    #264 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2006
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  5. Blammo

    Blammo New Member

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    Keep your nickel. You need it more than I do.:tongue3:
     
    #265 Blammo, Aug 3, 2006
  6. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    This is on the verge of insanity James. You need to take a nap or a pill or something.

    I am still waiting for you to show me where I said anyone was scared or an apology.
     
    #266 Brother Bob, Aug 3, 2006
  7. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    right..


    6However, it is not as though God's Word had failed [coming to nothing]. For it is not everybody who is a descendant of Jacob (Israel) who belongs to [the true] Israel.

    7And they are not all the children of Abraham because they are by blood his descendants. No, [the promise was] Your descendants will be called and counted through the line of Isaac [though Abraham had an older son].(C)

    8That is to say, it is not the children of the body [of Abraham] who are made God's children, but it is the offspring to whom the promise applies that shall be counted [as Abraham's true] descendants.

    9For this is what the promise said, About this time [next year] will I return and Sarah shall have a son.(D)

    10And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac,

    11And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

    12It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son].(E)

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [a]relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).(F)

    14What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not!

    15For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.(G)

    16So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]

    17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.

    18So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

    19You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?

    20But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?(H)

    21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

    22What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?(I)

    23And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

    24Even including ourselves whom He has called, not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles (heathen)?
     
    #267 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2006
  8. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    :) funny :)

    Remember....The dog runs by the river.
     
    #268 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2006
  9. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    18: But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

    What did they hear according to Paul.
    Romans, chapter 1
    "16": For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
    You find fault with Scripture and say that I am getting it wrong, that is foolish BP/T.
    Hebrews, chapter 8
    "11": And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

    Wording a little different but still sound doctrine and you find fault with that also, BP/T. Foolish
    So you think there will be preaching after the door of mercy is closed.
    I heard a missionary speak where missionaries visited an area never before visited by the outside world. After sharing the Gospel to them in their tongue, the natives said to each other "so that's who they are talking about". How would they have known this?
    This is not my story but I would think there are many many such stories and have seen and read such stories. But according to the Scriptures I have already given you Apostle Paul believed the word has went out into the whole world. It is you that do not believe it.
    Lastly
    Soooo, here is the problem;
    2 Peter, chapter 1
    "20": Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation
    You are making a private interpretation I knew it!!!!!

    This world is full of self made theologians who make it up as they go and when proven wrong attack the messenger. You have no answer to all the Scriptures I have given you about Apostle Paul saying the word has went into the whole world. You have no answer to "the light that lighteth every man that cometh into the world. You don’t even have an answer for Romans 10: verse 18.
    You admit that something went into the whole world but not the saving kind. Wonder why God would send that kind and not the saving kind. Paul calls it the Gospel. I only know one Gospel but apparently you know others. I have met College Theologians that didn’t have enough sense to come out of the rain and their beliefs were close to yours on some things.
    After being pushed you finally admit that something in verse 18 of Romans 10 did go into the whole world but at first said it was something under the Law.
    I don’t blame you for wanting to get away from me for I make you confront your own beliefs with Scripture and you don’t like that. You want followers not people who confront you. You are used to young whipper snappers you can rule but when confronted with someone who knows Scripture you find and excuse to attack him personally.\
    I just consider you as another duck down! :thumbs: :wavey:
     
    #269 Brother Bob, Aug 3, 2006
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  10. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Take a pill James;
    This proves you need it. What sense or do this post of yours have to do with the subject? It is hot here but must be a lot hotter there. Drink some water and take 2 asprins and call me in the morning. You are way out in left field all alone. Are you one of those Theologians too? Lets see: Jauthor001/Theologian. That looks good James almost as good as BP/T.


    6However, it is not as though God's Word had failed [coming to nothing]. For it is not everybody who is a descendant of Jacob (Israel) who belongs to [the true] Israel.

    7And they are not all the children of Abraham because they are by blood his descendants. No, [the promise was] Your descendants will be called and counted through the line of Isaac [though Abraham had an older son].(C)

    8That is to say, it is not the children of the body [of Abraham] who are made God's children, but it is the offspring to whom the promise applies that shall be counted [as Abraham's true] descendants.

    9For this is what the promise said, About this time [next year] will I return and Sarah shall have a son.(D)

    10And not only that, but this too: Rebecca conceived [two sons under exactly the same circumstances] by our forefather Isaac,

    11And the children were yet unborn and had so far done nothing either good or evil. Even so, in order further to carry out God's purpose of selection (election, choice), which depends not on works or what men can do, but on Him Who calls [them],

    12It was said to her that the elder [son] should serve the younger [son].(E)

    13As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated (held in [a]relative disregard in comparison with My feeling for Jacob).(F)

    14What shall we conclude then? Is there injustice upon God's part? Certainly not!

    15For He says to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will have compassion (pity) on whom I will have compassion.(G)

    16So then [God's gift] is not a question of human will and human effort, but of God's mercy. [It depends not on one's own willingness nor on his strenuous exertion as in running a race, but on God's having mercy on him.]

    17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, I have raised you up for this very purpose of displaying My power in [dealing with] you, so that My name may be proclaimed the whole world over.

    18So then He has mercy on whomever He wills (chooses) and He hardens (makes stubborn and unyielding the heart of) whomever He wills.

    19You will say to me, Why then does He still find fault and blame us [for sinning]? For who can resist and withstand His will?

    20But who are you, a mere man, to criticize and contradict and answer back to God? Will what is formed say to him that formed it, Why have you made me thus?(H)

    21Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same mass (lump) one vessel for beauty and distinction and honorable use, and another for menial or ignoble and dishonorable use?

    22What if God, although fully intending to show [the awfulness of] His wrath and to make known His power and authority, has tolerated with much patience the vessels (objects) of [His] anger which are ripe for destruction?(I)

    23And [what if] He thus purposes to make known and show the wealth of His glory in [dealing with] the vessels (objects) of His mercy which He has prepared beforehand for glory,

    24Even including ourselves whom He has called, not only from among the Jews but also from among the Gentiles (heathen)?
     
    #270 Brother Bob, Aug 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2006
  11. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Jarthur,
    Are you still lingering around? The EXIT sign is this way =>. Dont let the door hit you.
     
    #271 saturneptune, Aug 3, 2006
  12. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Hello Bobby,


    I can't seem to find that door. :) but don't give up trying to show me where it is.


    So..bobby..Why do you hold to predestination?
     
    #272 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2006
  13. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    Bobby,

    Your verse on your profile is this...


    In context..
    It just so happens we are talking about Romans 10. Your Brother Bob, thinks this disproves Calvinisim.

    You have said many times you are a Calvinist. A 5 point Calvinist at that. Yo make that statement,but I have never seen you post in as if you are.

    Please tell us how this fits in your "5-point" Calvinist faith and please show your brother Bob where he is wrong.
    Or...do you agree with Bob and the free-willers.


    Thanks for your time. I do welcome your post. It will be nice to see you post on the subject for a change. Are you up to the task?

    In Christ...James
     
    #273 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2006
    Last edited by a moderator: Aug 3, 2006
  14. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Saturneptune, I think maybe we went too far. What you think? He is calling you Bobby now!!!
    He said this is my profile: Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. Good verse though!

    James; You took too many of those pills. I told you to be careful they were powerful!

    NEXT POST
    Originally Posted by saturneptune
    Jarthur,
    Are you still lingering around? The EXIT sign is this way =>. Dont let the door hit you.
    Bobby,

    Your verse on your profile is this...


    Quote:
    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.



    In context..

    Quote:
    Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

    Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

    Rom 10:12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

    Rom 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

    Rom 10:14 ¶ How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

    Rom 10:15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!

    Rom 10:16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

    Rom 10:17 So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

    Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

    Rom 10:19 But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by [them that are] no people, [and] by a foolish nation I will anger you.

    Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me.

    Rom 10:21 But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.

    It just so happens we are talking about Romans 10. Your Brother Bob, thinks this disproves Calvinisim.

    You have said many times you are a Calvinist. A 5 point Calvinist at that. Yo make that statement,but I have never seen you post in as if you are.

    Please tell us how this fits in your "5-point" Calvinist faith and please show your brother Bob where he is wrong.
    Or...do you agree with Bob and the free-willers.


    Thanks for your time. I do welcome your post. It will be nice to see you post on the subject for a change. Are you up to the task?

    In Christ...James
     
    #274 Brother Bob, Aug 3, 2006
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  15. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    Good verses James; You starting to come around after all. :laugh: :laugh:
     
    #275 Brother Bob, Aug 3, 2006
  16. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    #276 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2006
  17. saturneptune

    saturneptune New Member

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    Baptist Pastor,
    You are claiming two types of revelations, general and specific. You say the general is enough to condem man. You say the specific is the power unto salvation. My question to you is are ALL who receive the special revelation or specific revelation brought unto salvation or are there some who reject it? Also, what about those who hear the Gospel Sunday after Sunday but never respond? Was that the general revelation or the special that is the power unto salvation?
     
    #277 saturneptune, Aug 3, 2006
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  18. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    right...

    But the funny thing. I made no mistake. :) :)

    duck!! zooooooooooooooooooooooom

    :)
     
    #278 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2006
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  19. Jarthur001

    Jarthur001 Active Member

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    So do you agree with Bob?
     
    #279 Jarthur001, Aug 3, 2006
  20. Brother Bob

    Brother Bob New Member

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    I think James is trying to be too smart now and calling saturneptune (Bob). I don't mind if you call me saturneptune but don't know if he cares too much for you calling him (me).

    I think he is insinuating that you are free will saturneptune. James and the theologian are deep deep you know.
     
    #280 Brother Bob, Aug 3, 2006
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