Predestination: Meaning and Application

Blammo;

Bob
This is what you started with which is like what happened to me also. They are saying God changed you so you had to believe. This is not what you are saying here but who am I to question another's conviction. I don't intend to. I believe the word has gone out and God's Spirit is striving with all men to repent and there comes a time we make a choice to serve God because we do believe. Was the Spirit there, you betcha, for I just said His Spirit strives with all men. I believed, repented (became sorry I had sinned against God in my heart) and by His Grace He saved me through the blood of His Son.
I think that is what you first said but I could be wrong. peace
You say you believed and God saved you. They took it and turned it around for you that God changed you and then you believed. "whosoever is led by the Spirit of God are the Sons of God". Its not saying He puts a ring in your nose and leds you either.

Blammo;
I heard the gospel several times before I finally believed. I kept hanging on to my own goodness. It wasn't til one night alone in my room, I was 17 years old, I began to examine my past and ponder my future. I did not like what I saw. All the preaching I had heard in the past flooded into my mind, I believed, and God saved me. (Best night of my life)

You have told me enough and it is between you and God not me. I don't ever question another's conviction.

 

Praise God! And to God be the glory.

 

God HAS to change anyone for them to believe . One doesn't believe of their own accord . You can't work up belief in your own power . God saves those who are rebels . The Lord draws the ones He desires to Himself . To say otherwise is putting the cart before the horse -- or , putting the Scripture on its head .

 

I know how you believe Rip;, but you think He waited until now to changed us but,
God made us able to believe when He created us.

Eve believed the devil but she could just as easily believed God but chose to believe the devil.

One thing about the Arminiam, he doesn't have to change scripture to make it fit.

Is calling a Work?



Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

 

Before the Fall Adam and Eve had classic free will . Since that time so-called free will is a fictional concept . You're only free to do what your nature dictates . I wouldn't use pre-Fall Adam and Eve as an example you could turn to in support of your ideas .

As for Arminians -- I doubt that most semi-Pelagians can rise to the level of that sub-biblical theology .

 

I never saw you refute not one Scripture. All you did was spew hate out of you heart and mind and mouth. Man, you need help and bad.

You say Adam and Eve were able to choose as we say we can. Maybe you can tell me when God recreated them so they could not choose. Is that Scripture or something you heard in the schoolyard?

 

That would be part of the fall Bob. Man did not loss his will, man no long had freewill, for sin and its control was on his life.

ROMANS 5.12-19
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Therefore as by the offence of one [judgment came] upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one [the free gift came] upon all men unto justification of life.

For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteo

 

But James;
This is only talking about by one man death was pronounced upon all mankind and by the free gift of God giving His Son to die for sin Salvation came to men.
It says nothing about losing the free will at all. Can you show me where it says they lost their free will? It was still the same creature. God just took away his right to live forever not his right to choose. One of the first things after the fall was the righteous act of faith of Abel which chose to serve God and Cain chose to serve evil, but the choice was still there.

I mean, The creature was made subject to vanity and that is why he fell but man keeps falling and falling but also choosing to do good. The Scripture says: cease to do evil and learn to do good.

 

Bob,

This is spiritually dead and places man in his sin nature, controled by sin. Death means cannot respond to God on his own. This picture is shown thoughout Gods Word. Bob I have shown you this many many times before. One time it was 4 full pages of verse showing this. I'll keep it short this time.

1st.. Jesus spoke to the religious leaders of His day and asked a rhetorically question.

1)"why do you not understand what I say?

He then answered...

2) "because you cannot bear to hear my word"

His point was not that they were physically deaf, but that they were spiritually dead. They could hear...but could not understand.

John 8..notice how much they hated Christ and even how they wanted to kill Him. They thought He was of the devil. They thought He was tought false doctrine. Boy have I heard all this before.

 

One more

The unsaved man cannot on his own submit to Gods law...indeed can not!!!

He is more hostile to the idea..enmity

 

The Scripture itself says that "the things of the Spirit" [spiritual truths] "...are spiritually discerned." (1 Cor 2:14) What does it mean that something is "spiritually discerned"? It points to the fact that the unspiritual cannot understand it, that they are completely in the dark about it. One must first be spiritual to grasp spiritual truth. As we proclaim to gospel to our friends they are either in one condition or another: spiritual or unspiritual. The Scripture does not allow anywhere for a middle ground between the two. So no matter what kind of grace is given to unspiritual people prior to salvation, if it does not actually change their heart and make them spiritual, they simply will not grasp any spiritual truths for they still lack the mind of Christ. The problem with synergism is here because they believe God's grace to unbelievers does not make spirtitual but only gives an opportunity to unspiritual men. But let's ask, an opportunity for whom? An oppotunity for an unregenerate person who, by nature, cannot understand spiritual truth (1 Cor 2:14). And unless he is regenerated (i.e. born again) then he is still unspiritual and by definition "...hostile toward God; for [he] does not subject itself to the law of God, for [he] not even able to do so."(Rom 8:7). Jesus says you do not look for figs on a briar bush. That bad trees do not bear good fruits. In other words, if something's very nature is different or bad, it does not produce the intended results. An unspiritual man does not exercise faith because he is by nature unspiritual. Jesus says the tree must first be made good for the fruit to be good.

Again, the message of the gospel is "spiritually discerned", so only the regenerate apprehend it, only those whose minds have been illumined by the Holy Spirit can see the truth in it. But all synergists would have us believe that unspiritual men actually exercise spiritual thoughts. Again we must ask, how can the unspiritual be spiritual? The Bible does not allow for this and it is an impossible supposition. The prerequisite for being spiritual is the Holy Spirit. All spiritual acts, such as faith in Christ, require one to be illumined and changed by the Spirit. "No one, the Scripture says, can say 'Jesus is Lord' apart from the Holy Spirit." Only those who have the "mind of Christ" can think thoughts after Him ( 1 Cor 2:16).

That is why verse 13 of 1 Cor 2 says "we have received...the Spirit who is from God that we might know the things freely given us by God" (That is, that we might know Jesus Christ and the gospel). The same text says unregenerate persons cannot know such thoughts BECAUSE they are spiritually discerned. They think of them as foolish. So no amount of persuasion on its own will make any difference.

The work of the Holy Spirit is a prerequisite to spiritual understanding. Consider, in this world, we have two ways to obtain knowledge: general revelation and special revelation. General revelation is simply the created world and special revelation refers to the Holy Scriptures directly revealed by God.

Yet he has not left himself without testimony: He has shown kindness by giving you rain from heaven and crops in their seasons; he provides you with plenty of food and fills your hearts with joy. (Acts 14:17).

General revelation itself should be enough to know God, but due to the rational effects of sin on the mind in the fall we do not read creation correctly, so we also need the Bible for saving knowledge. We cannot now read the world around us correctly apart from Scripture. But again salvation cannot be known merely by reading the page of Scripture either, even though it is infallible. It may have been sufficient before the fall, but now, general and special revelation are insufficient to give us life through saving knowledge of Christ. Let there be no mistake about this. it is not because either general or special revelation are defective in any way. Romans 1:20 and following says that God is clearly known to all persons through general revelation so that men are without excuse. The problem is not with revelation but with the heart of man, who "suppresses the truth in unrighteousness." (Rom 1:18)

What humans still need above and beyond general and special revelation is the illumination of the Holy Spirit who gives man spiritual eyes to see the truth of Christ in the gospel. Only the mind of Christ will suffice to understand the things of Christ. Unless the Lord opens the heart we do not understand or "take heed" to the things of the Lord (Acts 16:14).

People, therefore, do not reject the gospel because they are unintelligent, uneducated or simply do not have enough data. You could give them all the data in the world and they still would not believe. Romans 1:20 says that all men, in some respect, 'know the Lord', the question is, do they know him as an enemy or as a friend? By nature man is in rebellion. Only the Spirit can transform and disarm our hostility toward Jesus Christ. Only He can illumine the text in such a way that we might understand it. Man is blinded to the gospel because his affections are still fixed on this world. he loves darkness and hates the light (John 3:19, 20). Persuasion is not sufficient without the Spirit shining a light on the message.

Important to remember in all this: the Holy Spirit is not giving any new revelation. Rather He enlightens man by doing a work of grace in his heart so that he can perceive the revelation already given. Even as believers we pray that God would open our eyes to see wonderful things from His law. The law already exists in its full clarity and He has already turned on a flashlight, as in a dark room, for us so we see some saving truths, but others still remain hidden until God shines a light on them. But unbelievers are still completely in the dark. We need to ask the the Holy Spirit to illumine their mind and remove the veil that they may see the beauty and excellency of Christ in the gospel. They may already understand the gospel to a degree intellectually but they do not see any beauty, truth or excellency in it. Only the Spirit can change our affection for Christ. And just as we cannot lift ourselves by our own bootstraps, and just as water does not rise above its source, so the unspiritual man does not see or grasp or love spiritual things. No addition to revelation is needed. Instead we need a remove of the darkness that shrouds the hearts of unbelievers that they might see what is already there ... a darkness that prevents them from seeing the goodness of Christ.

In light of what was just said, consider Elisha's prayer to open the eyes of his servant that he might see what was already there:

"Alas, my master! What shall we do?"
So he answered, "Do not fear, for those who are with us are more than those who are with them."
17Then Elisha prayed and said, "LORD, I pray, open his eyes that he may see " And the LORD opened the servant's eyes and he saw; and behold, the mountain was full of horses and chariots of fire all around Elisha.

Like Elisha we need to pray for our friends that God open their eyes to see the plain truths already before them.

Jonathan Edwards once explained that this knowledge (light) is given immediately by God and not obtained through natural means that operate by their own power. While God often makes use of natural means, yet the medium is not what causes the effect. God may teach us many things through nature and reason, and even use the words of Scripture to convey a doctrine or proposition, but only God can illumine them in such a way wherein we see their beauty and excellency. Those who are unregenerate have no capacity to love what is spiritual and so they are not partly but wholly dependent on God to translate them from darkness to light.

Paul likewise said he knew God had chosen the Thessalonians because...

"...this gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction." (1 Thess 1:4,5)

 

Sorry..one more. This will be the last one tonight.

 

Hello baptistblogger,

YOU beat me with that one... --->(1 Cor 2:14)

Great 1st post. Welcome to BB



In Christ...James

 

I do not agree that the Spiritual dead cannot know enough that there is a God and they need a Saviour. Even you James talked about the General Revelation taught them enough to know they were lost. Now if they were dead as you say and could not hear anything then they couldn't hear that either.
I agree that the things of God are Spiritual decerned but to be able to believe and choose is given to every man.

I ask you, does the world know they are lost? Did you know you were lost before you were saved? I did. He said in this life every knee should bow and every tongue confess so if they were spiritually dead why in the world would He say that.
No, James that is not true that the dead in Christ don't know anything. The know enough to be condemned for Jesus said the world is condemned already. Time not space would not allow me room to post all that the spiritually dead know. Even the devil knew that He was the Lord. The world knew him not until after he arose from the dead then He said they shall all know me from the lest unto the greatest. I will never understand where you get that God's creation don't know God.

The natural man can not receive the things of God is simply saying you must worship God in Spirit and in Truth and not in the flesh. He that walketh after the flesh shall die and He through the Spirit shall mortify the deeds of the body shall live.

You may have told me such things but I know for sure that I didn't believe them and still do not. The young man that came to the Lord and asked "what must I do to be saved". Well, He understood what Jesus told him. The woman with the issue of blood may have been spiritual dead but she knew enough that if she could only touch the hem of Jesus garment she would be made whole. The theif on the right on the cross may of been spiritually dead but he knew that Jesus had the power to save him if he asked. The Bible from the beginning to the end tells the whole world which is spiritually dead that they must believe that Jesus is the Christ. I could write a book on the spiritual dead spoken of in the Bible who knew they must repent and believe. The man that even built his house on the sand may of been spiritually dead but knew he must do something. The man that come to Apostle in Acts and said "what must I do to be saved, was spiritually dead but Apostle Paul told him to believe and he would be saved.

All these were spiritually dead but knew enough to believe. There is no where in the Bible where you can prove to me that man lost his understanding to choose after the fall. No where. The soldier that pierced Him in the side confessed and said "truly this is the Son of Man." The Grace of God that bringeth Salvation hath appeared unto all men, etc.

1 Cor 2:14, No they can't go and preach the Gospel but they can believe for even Jesus said "except ye believe".

I don't know how you all justify all the Scriptures to yourself by using one little Scripture taken out of context. If they don't line up with the rest of the Bible and especially what Jesus taught then you got it wrong.



Acts, chapter 16
"27": And the keeper of the prison awaking out of his sleep, and seeing the prison doors open, he drew out his sword, and would have killed himself, supposing that the prisoners had been fled.

"28": But Paul cried with a loud voice, saying, Do thyself no harm: for we are all here.

"29": Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas,

"30": And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

"31": And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.




Is calling a Work?

Ac 2:21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:12 ¶ For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

Ro 10:13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Ro 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?

Ephesians, chapter 2
8: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
11: Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12: That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14: For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15: Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;

Peace,

 

James 2:18 But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works. 19 You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe—and tremble! 20 But do you want to know, O foolish man, that faith without works is dead?

 

Acts 7:51 Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.

Luke 13:34 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, which killest the prophets, and stonest them that are sent unto thee; how often would I have gathered thy children together, as a hen doth gather her brood under her wings, and ye would not!

Just two of many verses that show God's will is that man would be saved. But, since He created man with free-will, men have the capacity to resist God's will. Therefore they are guilty of unbelief. They have not obeyed the gospel. You see, from Acts 7:51, it was the Holy Spirit of God that was being resisted. So, how can you say salvation is not contingent on a man choosing to believe? Certainly it can be proven that certain people were ordained to eternal life, but, you cannot discount the whosoever wills. When someone hears the gospel from the word of God, have they not been offered salvation by grace, through faith? Can a man be elected if he is not a candidate? In an earlier post I spoke of my resisting the gospel many times before God saved me. It should be clear, from what I said, the Holy Spirit was at work each time. I am by no means saying that God is too weak to overcome my will, I am saying that God chose me first, but, I was not saved til I chose Him. I am saved because of what God did for me, I would be destined for hell if I had not accepted the free gift. If I offered you a free gift, when is it yours, when do you possess it? Only when you realize you need it, and decide you want it, will you receive it. I am elect according to the foreknowledge of God. God knowing it in eternity past, does not mean God determined it in eternity past. Foreknowledge and predestination are two seperate things, and foreknowledge preceded predestination. That's my take so far.

 

Not a response. Quoted for my own benefit.

 

In context in our verse of concern (1Cor 2:14), one should note the emphases both before and after is on human wisdom in regards to judgment. Context is seen in the passages from (1Cor 1:17-2:16) where Paul is contrasting between the wisdom of God and the wisdom of humans of that day -this including the supposedly wisest scholars, philosophers, and earthly rulers of that day.

(1Cor 2:14) But the natural man (unsaved) receiveth not the things (subject is clearly wisdom) of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him (they have not received the Holy Spirit) neither can he know them, (being unsaved) because they are spiritually discerned. (they do not judge with Spiritual wisdom)

Commentary on these passages:
Paul's point...is straightforward and rhetorically telling: the human power-wielders were so completely clueless about God's way or working that they actually crucified the Lord of glory. Why, therefore, should we pay attention to human notions of wisdom and power?...Hays

The subject is plainly of judgment wherein Paul is saying that judgment should not rest on human wisdom but the spiritually mature should rest their faith on the power of God in judgment. The context is not suggesting that the natural man is unable to receive the Grace of God as referred to by the first letter in TULIP “Total depravity”, but that the natural man being (unsaved) does not have the wisdom of God but only human wisdom not being in the spirit of faith. Placing this verse into context we see it clearly does not support the notion of the none existence of “synergy” (the doctrine that human will cooperates with Devine grace in regeneration) this is also clearly in light when Paul speaking to his brothers (the saved) said in verse 1:26 “For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, ” the subject again is Godly wisdom vs. human wisdom and where we should rest; we see in regards to “not many” meaning of these saved if this were in the context of spiritual depravity pertaining to grace, there could be no division pertaining to the U in TULIP “unconditional election” between them as Paul called them all “brothers”.

(1Cor 1:17-2:16)
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, (human wisdom) lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart." Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-- these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


The saved understand the wisdom of this mystery in the Spirit of God, the unsaved think it is foolish in their human wisdom, the subject does not reflect on regeneration that comes after having received the Holy Spirit so using the proof texting of 1Cor 2:14 to suggest synergy as false does not apply.

Have fun! Gone fishing!


:tongue3:

 

hello Benjamin,

Indeed it was talking about wisdom/understanding of God. Therefore the point remains.

They did not understand, for they had not the wisdom of God..Just as the Bible says.

And still we have this passage John 8, which is clear and can be seen in the link below.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=829815&postcount=409

Have a good time fishing.


In Christ..James

 

Hello Bob

I do not agree that the Spiritual dead
All I did was post verses. The verses are clear. By one man sin came into the world, and death by sin. Read my long 2 post statement I made on this a few pages back. It was addressed to Ben, But you can read it.

Even you James talked about the General Revelation taught
Indeed it was preached or went out in some way. Some have the stars...Some have preaching. This does not mean they understand.

Now if they were dead as you say and could not hear anything then they couldn't hear that either.
Hear as in understand. Yes...that is the point. At some point Holy Spirit turns on the light.

I agree that the things of God are Spiritual decerned but to be able to believe and choose is given to every man.
sure...after they understand

I ask you, does the world know they are lost? Did you know you were lost before you were saved? Idid.
For the most part I would say no they do not. Now this is just a guess. But you heard over and over and maybe felt unsaved. But you also live in the Bible belt, where you hear the word of God preached more then most.

No, James that is not true that the dead in Christ don't know anything.
Don't tell this to me. Speak to God. Tis His Word. Again see my 2 post reply on this a few pages back.

The know enough to be condemned for Jesus said the world is condemned already. Time not space would not allow me room to post all that the spiritually dead know. Even the devil knew that He was the Lord.

Indeed and you see that is is more then just hearing. To Know means to see God as He really is...and fall down and worship Him. When we see this..this is way beyond saying.."Ok..maybe there is a God".

Case in point.....

Look each time man has come face to face with God...

They want the rocks to fall on them to hide them from God.....that is know and understanding who God is..

Woe is me...for I have unclean lips.....that is know and understanding who God is

Moses can only see his great shine of glory....this is understanding God..a holy God

God is to be Feared for He is the great Holy. God is Holy...we are not. We are ALL done asray. Non seek after God. Therefore in love God chose.

Salvation is of the Trinity.

God chose...
Christ Saves...
Holy Spirit Draws..

Salvation is all about God.

I got yard work...I'll talk with you guys latter.


In Christ..James