Predestination: Meaning and Application

Baptistblogger,
Welcome to BB, and just wanted to say that is the best post I have seen on explaining God's sovereignty. It was written in Christian love, understandable, and without arrogance and rudeness, a rare commodity here.

One problem that seems to persist in these free will debates is that somehow in former Engilsh classes everyone thinks boldness is a synonym for being rude and arrogant.

Another thing that is missing, all the time the debate is about Calvinism vs free will. It goes on and on, and says the same thing. Strangely silent is pointing out the extreme view that we do not need missions, evangelism, tracts, or any other means of spreading the Gospel, that God takes care of all that. If you go from thread to thread in other forums, you will see that is a common theme. My question to anyone is, why is the debate always centered on free will vs Calvinism? Why is Calvinism vs hyper never addressed, and to me, just as big a fallacy as free will.

 

I will accept Benjamin's answer. Makes a lot more sense and is what the Bible says. Tell you the truth James I don't know where you got your answers.

In context in our verse of concern (1Cor 2:14), one should note the emphases both before and after is on human wisdom in regards to judgment. Context is seen in the passages from (1Cor 1:17-2:16) where Paul is contrasting between the wisdom of God and the wisdom of humans of that day -this including the supposedly wisest scholars, philosophers, and earthly rulers of that day.

(1Cor 2:14) But the natural man (unsaved) receiveth not the things (subject is clearly wisdom) of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him (they have not received the Holy Spirit) neither can he know them, (being unsaved) because they are spiritually discerned. (they do not judge with Spiritual wisdom)

Commentary on these passages:
Paul's point...is straightforward and rhetorically telling: the human power-wielders were so completely clueless about God's way or working that they actually crucified the Lord of glory. Why, therefore, should we pay attention to human notions of wisdom and power?...Hays

The subject is plainly of judgment wherein Paul is saying that judgment should not rest on human wisdom but the spiritually mature should rest their faith on the power of God in judgment. The context is not suggesting that the natural man is unable to receive the Grace of God as referred to by the first letter in TULIP “Total depravity”, but that the natural man being (unsaved) does not have the wisdom of God but only human wisdom not being in the spirit of faith. Placing this verse into context we see it clearly does not support the notion of the none existence of “synergy” (the doctrine that human will cooperates with Devine grace in regeneration) this is also clearly in light when Paul speaking to his brothers (the saved) said in verse 1:26 “For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, ” the subject again is Godly wisdom vs. human wisdom and where we should rest; we see in regards to “not many” meaning of these saved if this were in the context of spiritual depravity pertaining to grace, there could be no division pertaining to the U in TULIP “unconditional election” between them as Paul called them all “brothers”.

(1Cor 1:17-2:16)
For Christ did not send me to baptize but to preach the gospel, and not with words of eloquent wisdom, (human wisdom) lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power. For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart." Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men. For consider your calling, brothers: not many of you were wise according to worldly standards, not many were powerful, not many were of noble birth. But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, so that no human being might boast in the presence of God. He is the source of your life in Christ Jesus, whom God made our wisdom and our righteousness and sanctification and redemption. Therefore, as it is written, "Let the one who boasts, boast in the Lord."

And I, when I came to you, brothers, did not come proclaiming to you the testimony of God with lofty speech or wisdom. For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. And I was with you in weakness and in fear and much trembling, and my speech and my message were not in plausible words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men but in the power of God. Yet among the mature we do impart wisdom, although it is not a wisdom of this age or of the rulers of this age, who are doomed to pass away. But we impart a secret and hidden wisdom of God, which God decreed before the ages for our glory. None of the rulers of this age understood this, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. But, as it is written, "What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love him"-- these things God has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God. For who knows a person's thoughts except the spirit of that person, which is in him? So also no one comprehends the thoughts of God except the Spirit of God. Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God. And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual. The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned. The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one. "For who has understood the mind of the Lord so as to instruct him?" But we have the mind of Christ.


The saved understand the wisdom of this mystery in the Spirit of God, the unsaved think it is foolish in their human wisdom, the subject does not reflect on regeneration that comes after having received the Holy Spirit so using the proof texting of 1Cor 2:14 to suggest synergy as false does not apply.

Have fun! Gone fishing!

 

Right on Blammo; I knew when you thought about it you would put it back in order for it was your salvation and not theirs.

Wonder if Npet will take his "Glory be to God back" You just busted his bubble.

 

James and blogger;
Why don’t you add these Scriptures to your posts and these are just a few.

KJMatt.03
"6": And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

"7": But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

"8": Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Acts, chapter 26
"20": But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

"21": For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

"22": Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

"23": That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles

John, chapter 1
"7": The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

"8": He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John, chapter 3

"18": He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"19": And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

"20": For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

"21": But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

BTW, this is what the whole Bible is about and that is to preach repentance to all men for its not God's will that any would perish. If it worked as you say and man can't repent then God asked man to do something he cannot do. God don't work that way. You both fail to consider the rest of the Bible and settle down on a few Scriptures and take them out of context to make a point and put forth false doctrine that a man can't repent. The Spirit of God strives with all men and if you would add that to your post then they would be true but you leave out the most important part.

 

I hope npetreley doesn't take it back. I also hope that he has a great weekend. All the calvinists should rejoice now that they know we ("free-willers") do not believe we save ourselves. You and I have always believed we were saved by grace. You and I have always believed God was inviting us to be saved. God called and we responded. Our response is considered a work by them, that's why they reject it. I have been wondering though:

1)Are there any saved calvinists who never heard the word of God before they believed?

2)Do they remember the first time they believed the gospel?

3)Were they saved before or after they believed?

 

Someone will say a lot more than that blogger. "Jesus, what must I do to be saved". Jesus didn't say well hang around for a while and maybe I will send the Holy Spirit and change your heart then again, maybe not. Hogwash

Why? Would God send us out to preach repentance to a lost and dying world if they can't repent? Is God making fun of us or what?

 

I can't even begin to answer for a Calvinist but this is what they have told me in the past that they heard but God changed their heart first before they could believe, that they had no control over it whatsoever. They didn't say the Spirit was striving with them as well as all men but just that it changed their heart. If that is true, then let us all sing, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die, no need to worry for you are either in or out and nothing you can do about it. God sent us into all the world to preach repentance but according to them it must of been just to keep us busy.

They will say it was not Grace but your works that you are claiming saved you now. Afraid you will be kicked back out of the club blammo. I have tried to tell them I believed Grace saved me since I been on here but I had to believe to receive it but they will not accept that.

I have never knew a man that believed he saved himself, not one in my entire life and I am older than most on here.

npet; is to busy following me around and doing a post check on me. I wonder how old he is?

 

Neither do I. I know a couple of people who think they are keeping themselves saved, but that's about it. I believe in OSAS because it is the work of Christ that saved me. When Jesus said "it is finished", the work that saves was done. Even calvinists believe there is one more thing that must happen before Christ's finished work is applied to them. (Faith in it)

Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

It shall save those who believe it by faith, and it shall damn those who reject it in disbelief.

 

“Jehovah hath made everything for its own end; Yea, even the wicked for the day of evil,” Prov. 16:4.

“A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence; for they stumble at the word, being disobedient; whereunto also they were appointed,” I Peter 2:8.

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.

“For God did put in their heart to do His mind, and to come to one mind, and to give their kingdom unto the beast, until the word of God should be accomplished,” Rev. 17:17.

We also see “vessels of wrath” which by the Lord were “fitted unto destruction,” were “endured with much long suffering” in order that He might “show His wrath, and make His power known”; and with these are contrasted the “vessels of mercy, which He afore prepared unto glory” in order “that He might make known the riches of His glory” upon them (Rom. 9:22, 23).

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.

“God sendeth them a working of error, that they should believe a lie,” II Thess. 2:11.

“Behold, ye despisers, and wonder, and perish; For I work a work in your days, A work which ye shall in no wise believe, if one declare it unto you,” Acts 13:41.

“For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again, He hath blinded their eyes, and He hardened their heart; Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart, And should turn, And I should heal them,” John 12:39, 40.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41

“For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind,” John 9:39.

“I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou didst hide these things from the wise and understanding, and didst reveal them unto babes,” Matt. 11:25.

“Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast your pearls before swine,” Matt. 7:6.


“But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let you pass by him; for Jehovah thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that He might deliver him into thy hand, as at this day,” Deut. 2:30.

“For it was of Jehovah to harden their hearts, to come against Israel in battle, that He might utterly destroy them, as Jehovah commanded Moses.” Joshua 11:20.

“For the Scripture saith unto Pharaoh, For this very purpose did I raise thee up, that I might show in thee my power, and that my name might be published abroad in all the earth,” Rom. 9:17 (see also Ex. 9:16)

 

Hello Bob,


Bob said..

You understand where I got my answers.
Humm I believe you when you say this Bob. I quoted Bible verse...so please do not shoot me. No one seems to want to address the context. John 8 for 1.

I will accept Benjamin's answer
Now Benjamin did....and as I showed this was the point of my post. Godly wisdom is understand God. Thanks Ben for pointing that out very clear.

Makes a lot more sense and is what the Bible says.
Well..as it turns out we both used the Bible. Ben said it better..fine go with his wording. Yet...that proves what I said before.


Thanks Ben. Thanks Bob that you agree with Ben.


In Christ...James

 

WOW…checkout the Bible verses in these post!!!

Apparently we can just believe Gods Word when it says Man is dead in His sins and cannot respond on his own.

Thanks ..baptistblogger and Baptist_Pastor/Theologian for sticking to the fine details of Gods Holy Word, no matter what mans logic may say. Its good to see verses posted to the subject…and not mans words and ideas. The thing is…this is only a small part of the verses found in Gods Holy Word that teaches this.

These Guys let their Bible do their talking for them and need to be given a hand.. :wavey:

Now world be a good time for others to hold to Gods Holy Word just as there two have done and drop man made logic.

LINKS below…

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=830183&postcount=429

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=830198&postcount=430

Great Job!!

In Christ..James

 

saturneptune,

I for one have addressed the dangers of hyper-calvinisim and hyper-freewillism. No one wants to talk to much about hyper-calvinism, for most Calvinist will disagree with it and say so. It seems that we always end up talking about hyper-freewill, where it is believed mankind did not DIE in the fall, but means man now dies at the end of his life. To bad for those that hold to this idea, that the Bible blows this idea off the doctrinal map.

I have said many times that the church members that hold to full freewill of man, have slipped from the teachings of James Arminius and into full blow Pelagianism. This has been seen here on these post. Arminius claimed to be semi-pelagian

Pelagianism is the belief that original sin did not taint human nature (which, being created from God, was divine), and that mortal will is still capable of choosing good or evil without Divine aid. According to Pelagian doctrine, man is no longer in need of any of God's graces beyond the creation of his will.<<<----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------you have seen this on this thread as some argue that all men have the same chance to be saved being they have a will and the word has gone out. Clearly wrong and and false doctrine!!! This is hyper-freewill. Where as the truth be...Grace is clearly given to some more then others.

Pelagianism was opposed by Augustine, leading to its condemnation as a heresy at several local synods. It was condemned in 416ad and 418ad at the Councils of Carthage. These condemnations were ratified at the Council of Ephesus in 432ad, although it was not considered a major act of that council.

The RCC slipped back into Pelagianism and still hold to it in a limited way.

Then came Martin Luther, Zwingli, Calvin and later Beza, Gomarus, John Knox, and any number of later figures such as the English Baptist John Bunyan, the American preacher Jonathan Edwards to bring us back to Paulinism. BTW..Paul didn't just make this up..Paul got his teachings from God, when he was taken to the 3rd Heaven.

For the most part, Pelagianism as a heretical movement ceased to exist after the 6th century. Now it seems it is back and posting on the BB.

 

Blammo, we may not agree on your further explanation that includes free will, but I maintain re: your agreement with the Holy Spirit convincing you and leading you to repentance: Praise God, and to God be the Glory.

 

Still both of them worked their way around these Scriptures. Amazing and James is on the side line prasing. The whole purpose of the Bible is to teach men of good and evil and if they walk after the flesh they shall die (second death), but if they walk after the Spirit they shall live. Now, if as some of you have suggested that God will not sit on side lines but do it all for some and leave the rest out then the Bible would not make any sense. Apostle Peter said it right when he said that Paul's epistles were hard to understand and some would read them to their own destuction. amen,
I believe what the Lord said "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved". I don't have to go all the way back to the time of a disobeident Israel and God's message to them and try to make a case for the "new and living way" of the Lord.

KJMatt.03
"6": And were baptized of him in Jordan, confessing their sins.

"7": But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

"8": Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance:

Acts, chapter 26
"20": But shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judaea, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

"21": For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

"22": Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

"23": That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles

John, chapter 1
"7": The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

"8": He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John, chapter 3

"18": He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

"19": And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

"20": For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

"21": But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

BTW, this is what the whole Bible is about and that is to preach repentance to all men for its not God's will that any would perish. If it worked as you say and man can't repent then God asked man to do something he cannot do. God don't work that way. You both fail to consider the rest of the Bible and settle down on a few Scriptures and take them out of context to make a point and put forth false doctrine that a man can't repent. The Spirit of God strives with all men and if you would add that to your post then they would be true but you leave out the most important part.
__________________

 

Blammo;
I was saved the same as you say you were. I praise God that He gave us all a chance.

 

James,
Thanks for that history of hyper free will. I had never heard it put quite that way, but it is a very dangerous belief, and clearly as much if not more away from the Scripture than hyper Calvinism. Both extremes are a gross distortion of the Bible, and in fact, its hard to imagine any rational person accepting either.

 

Indeed I did understand his point. The point was that of context. Context is the wisdom of God. I agree. What Ben fails to see, is that it proves my post....thus all the verses on ...understanding coming from God...wisdom is the beginning of understanding. and last but not least..the verse that say all do not have understanding.

Thus again..it proves my point.

Now I also know that Ben was saying this was why it would not work. But he has the proof to see this is now a wrong view to hold. Do you now see this?

Lets look again...

Is God right or what???

 

Well, at least you and I agree on most of it. The Holy Spirit definately was there, bringing light to my sin, showing me what I was, bringing to rememberence all that God had showed me from His word, and revealing to me His grace. Thank you for reading and understanding what I am saying. Thank you for acknowledging the things we do agree on.

Some smart guy just got done saying I don't believe God is still at work with mankind. I guess he doesn't read my posts.