Predestination: Meaning and Application

Bob,

If you do not mind, I would like to help you out on this one....you can take it or leave it. Just a few thoughts. You may ask why? I do not think you understand where your view is placing you. You are stepping way beyond the bounds of the Word of God. Arminius and Wesley saw this and they took on another view in order to deal with this major problem. Hyper-freewill is outside of all Church doctrine and way beyond the Bible.

This is a short idea on the views of James Arminius and later John Wesley. They held that original sin involved man's guilt and exposed him to Gods wrath just as Calvinist. However...this was removed by atonement, which made it possible for all people to cooperate with God through the Holy Spirit.

Now...Arminius believed that this ability that enables man to cooperate flows from Gods justice, and Wesley believed that it was conferred by prevenient (going before) grace.

By this gift of grace everyone is released from the guilt of Adam's sin and has created in him the beginng of life...no longer dead, .....which will lead him on to futher life if he responds in the right way to it. This grace gives to everyone the power to choose the good. In spite of this, man can resist this grace and be lost, for he makes the final decision about salvation.

Now I do not believe this in anyway. There are many holes in it. Yet I can understand it better then "hyper-freewill" that you are posting. At least it deals with the dead nature of man, which is CLEARLY in the Bible.

Just one hole for you...

Those before Christ and beyond the Jews, still had not the grace.
There are other things you must deal with too.

But...clearly hyper-freewill...in that Man is not dead from the fall is a false doctrine.


If not, we have some major posting coming your way.



In Christ...James

 

James you come up with the craziest things I ever heard. I started on BB saying "let the dead bury the dead". You dream up stuff and sometimes I worry about you and your understand. You are jumping from pillar to post. Everytime a new poster comes on which seems to have an education you jump real fast in his theory, praising him and falling all over him. Then some of us show the new poster where he is wrong and you have to back up. I don't know why I really have to say this but all sinners are dead in the sight of God as they have fell out in sin. That does not mean they do not know there is a God, that they are sinners and they need to repent. I don't teach them that the Holy Spirit teaches them that. Surprise Surprise, the Holy Spirit teaches more than just you, The Holy Spirit strives with all men. Oh shoot, I getting tired of beating this drum James. Either you understand or you don't. Maybe its too much for you. DEAD, means he is in sin and needs a Saviour and I know of one that loves him even though he is a sinner, who said "I come not to call the righteous but the sinner to repentance. There are so so many Scriptures that Calvinism just don't fit. peace

Thank you James for your offer but I think I can handle myself.

 

Bound,

Thanks for your reply. Your 1st post, there was just to much guess work for me to address. I started typing it and I had over 7 pages in MS Word and I had not past the hafeway part. Your post was built on the premise that your view of Calvinism is the right view. I thought it be better if we take a Calvinist view, being that it is the subject you tried to address.

Lets start with London Baptist Confession of Faith

Chapter 6: Of the Fall of Man, Of Sin, And of the Punishment Thereof

1._____ Although God created man upright and perfect, and gave him a righteous law, which had been unto life had he kept it, and threatened death upon the breach thereof, yet he did not long abide in this honour; Satan using the subtlety of the serpent to subdue Eve, then by her seducing Adam, who, without any compulsion, did willfully transgress the law of their creation, and the command given unto them, in eating the forbidden fruit, which God was pleased, according to his wise and holy counsel to permit, having purposed to order it to his own glory.
( Genesis 2:16, 17; Genesis 3:12,13; 2 Corinthians 11:3 )

2._____ Our first parents, by this sin, fell from their original righteousness and communion with God, and we in them whereby death came upon all: all becoming dead in sin, and wholly defiled in all the faculties and parts of soul and body.
( Romans 3:23; Romans 5:12, etc; Titus 1:15; Genesis 6:5; Jeremiah 17:9; Romans 3:10-19 )

3._____ They being the root, and by God's appointment, standing in the room and stead of all mankind, the guilt of the sin was imputed, and corrupted nature conveyed, to all their posterity descending from them by ordinary generation, being now conceived in sin, and by nature children of wrath, the servants of sin, the subjects of death, and all other miseries, spiritual, temporal, and eternal, unless the Lord Jesus set them free.
( Romans 5:12-19; 1 Corinthians 15:21, 22, 45, 49; Psalms 51:5; Job 14:4; Ephesians 2:3; Romans 6:20 Romans 5:12; Hebrews 2:14, 15; 1 Thessalonians 1:10 )

4._____ From this original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions.
( Romans 8:7; Colossians 1:21; James 1:14, 15; Matthew 15:19 )

5._____ The corruption of nature, during this life, doth remain in those that are regenerated; and although it be through Christ pardoned and mortified, yet both itself, and the first motions thereof, are truly and properly sin.
( Romans 7:18,23; Ecclesiastes 7:20; 1 John 1:8; Romans 7:23-25; Galatians 5:17 )

Chapter 7: Of God's Covenant

1._____ The distance between God and the creature is so great, that although reasonable creatures do owe obedience to him as their creator, yet they could never have attained the reward of life but by some voluntary condescension on God's part, which he hath been pleased to express by way of covenant.
( Luke 17:10; Job 35:7,8 )
2._____ Moreover, man having brought himself under the curse of the law by his fall, it pleased the Lord to make a covenant of grace, wherein he freely offereth unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in him, that they may be saved; and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto eternal life, his Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe.
( Genesis 2:17; Galatians 3:10; Romans 3:20, 21; Romans 8:3; Mark 16:15, 16; John 3:16; Ezekiel 36:26, 27; John 6:44, 45; Psalms 110:3 )

3._____ This covenant is revealed in the gospel; first of all to Adam in the promise of salvation by the seed of the woman, and afterwards by farther steps, until the full discovery thereof was completed in the New Testament; and it is founded in that eternal covenant transaction that was between the Father and the Son about the redemption of the elect; and it is alone by the grace of this covenant that all the posterity of fallen Adam that ever were saved did obtain life and blessed immortality, man being now utterly incapable of acceptance with God upon those terms on which Adam stood in his state of innocency.
( Genesis 3:15; Hebrews 1:1; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; Hebrews 11;6, 13; Romans 4:1, 2, &c.; Acts 4:12; John 8:56 )


Chapter 9: Of Free Will

1._____ God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty and power of acting upon choice, that it is neither forced, nor by any necessity of nature determined to do good or evil.
( Matthew 17:12; James 1:14; Deuteronomy 30:19 )
2._____ Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which was good and well-pleasing to God, but yet was unstable, so that he might fall from it.
( Ecclesiastes 7:29; Genesis 3:6 )

3._____ Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
( Romans 5:6; Romans 8:7; Ephesians 2:1, 5; Titus 3:3-5; John 6:44 )

4._____ When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and by his grace alone enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that by reason of his remaining corruptions, he doth not perfectly, nor only will, that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
( Colossians 1:13; John 8:36; Philippians 2:13; Romans 7:15, 18, 19, 21, 23 )

5._____ This will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone in the state of glory only

Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )

 

Talking about the anti christ and his followers. You are wasting my time, I am sorry but to use these Scriptures to show man has no choice is complete foolishness.

Scripture says that satan is as a minister of righteous and has his angels and shall deceive many and except those days were shorten there would be no flesh saved.

I am trying to be nice here but its hard when you use Scripture like this to uphold your theory of "no choice".

 

Chapter 11: Of Justification

1._____ Those whom God effectually calleth, he also freely justifieth, not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for anything wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; not by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing Christ's active obedience unto the whole law, and passive obedience in his death for their whole and sole righteousness by faith, which faith they have not of themselves; it is the gift of God.
( Romans 3:24; Romans 8:30; Romans 4:5-8; Ephesians 1:7; 1 Corinthians 1:30, 31; Romans 5:17-19; Philippians 3:8, 9; Ephesians 2:8-10; John 1:12; Romans 5:17 )

2._____ Faith thus receiving and resting on Christ and his righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but worketh by love.
( Romans 3:28; Galatians 5:6; James 2:17, 22, 26 )

3._____ Christ, by his obedience and death, did fully discharge the debt of all those that are justified; and did, by the sacrifice of himself in the blood of his cross, undergoing in their stead the penalty due unto them, make a proper, real, and full satisfaction to God's justice in their behalf; yet, inasmuch as he was given by the Father for them, and his obedience and satisfaction accepted in their stead, and both freely, not for anything in them, their justification is only of free grace, that both the exact justice and rich grace of God might be glorified in the justification of sinners.
( Hebrews 10:14; 1 Peter 1:18, 19; Isaiah 53:5, 6; Romans 8:32; 2 Corinthians 5:21; Romans 3:26; Ephesians 1:6,7; Ephesians 2:7 )

4._____ God did from all eternity decree to justify all the elect, and Christ did in the fullness of time die for their sins, and rise again for their justification; nevertheless, they are not justified personally, until the Holy Spirit doth in time due actually apply Christ unto them.
( Galatians 3:8; 1 Peter 1:2; 1 Timothy 2:6; Romans 4:25; Colossians 1:21,22; Titus 3:4-7 )

5._____ God doth continue to forgive the sins of those that are justified, and although they can never fall from the state of justification, yet they may, by their sins, fall under God's fatherly displeasure; and in that condition they have not usually the light of his countenance restored unto them, until they humble themselves, confess their sins, beg pardon, and renew their faith and repentance.
( Matthew 6:12; 1 John 1:7, 9; John 10:28; Psalms 89:31-33; Psalms 32:5; Psalms 51; Matthew 26:75 )

6._____ The justification of believers under the Old Testament was, in all these respects, one and the same with the justification of believers under the New Testament.
( Galatians 3:9; Romans 4:22-24 )


Chapter 15: Of Repentance Unto Life and Salvation

1._____ Such of the elect as are converted at riper years, having sometime lived in the state of nature, and therein served divers lusts and pleasures, God in their effectual calling giveth them repentance unto life. ( Titus 3:2-5 )

2._____ Whereas there is none that doth good and sinneth not, and the best of men may, through the power and deceitfulness of their corruption dwelling in them, with the prevalency of temptation, fall into great sins and provocations; God hath, in the covenant of grace, mercifully provided that believers so sinning and falling be renewed through repentance unto salvation.
( Ecclesiastes 7:20; Luke 22:31, 32 )

3._____ This saving repentance is an evangelical grace, whereby a person, being by the Holy Spirit made sensible of the manifold evils of his sin, doth, by faith in Christ, humble himself for it with godly sorrow, detestation of it, and self-abhorrency, praying for pardon and strength of grace, with a purpose and endeavour, by supplies of the Spirit, to walk before God unto all well-pleasing in all things.
( Zechariah 12:10; Acts 11:18; Ezekiel 36:31; 2 Corinthians 7:11; Psalms 119:6; Psalms 119:128 )

4._____ As repentance is to be continued through the whole course of our lives, upon the account of the body of death, and the motions thereof, so it is every man's duty to repent of his particular known sins particularly.
( Luke 19:8; 1 Timothy 1:13, 15 )

5._____ Such is the provision which God hath made through Christ in the covenant of grace for the preservation of believers unto salvation; that although there is no sin so small but it deserves damnation; yet there is no sin so great that it shall bring damnation on them that repent; which makes the constant preaching of repentance necessary.
( Romans 6:23; Isaiah 1:16-18 Isaiah 55:7 )

 

right...

mean while back on page 41

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=829815&postcount=409



BTW..
1) are you saying that because I do not agree with bound and Benjamin that they are not enducated?
2) where have you proved anyone wrong? I have yet to see it.
3) Show me where I have backed down from anyone? One moment i'm to bold..now backdown. which one is it?

 

So, you do believe babies are not only born with a sinful flesh but born dead to God so they are hell bound.

 

Answer later

 

Tell me what Christ says..there is your answer.

here is the post...

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=829815&postcount=409

 

????? who in the world is MT Smith???

I'm not sure who he is...but he did not write these...and it is not his work...and even your post says.."freeware"..HELLO!!!

also notice this...Smith..whoever he is...only distributes this.

If you paid for it....he got ya. Its free...its public domain

 

At least its my own work James!! peace

 

My mistake James;
I didn't see where you put the Heading of London Baptist Confession. sorry
I still think this is supposed to be a discussion between us and not London Baptist Confession. If I wanted that I would just download it.

 

Have you gone off the deep end Bob? I mean..really.

Freeware. This is the very London Baptist Confession of Faith!!! hello!!

Smith did not write this. This is public domain buddy.

Have you never read this before Bob?


The public domain comprises the body of knowledge and innovation (especially creative works such as writing, art, music, and inventions) in relation to which no person or other legal entity can establish or maintain proprietary interests within a particular legal jurisdiction. This body of information and creativity is considered to be part of a common cultural and intellectual heritage, which, in general, anyone may use or exploit, whether for commercial or non-commercial purposes.

 

removed post

 

no problem Bob...i'll bring it to the board right now bub.

This is like all the public domain songs. Mary had a little lamb...Jesus Loves me.. This is even like the public domain BIBLE

 

Meantime...

I guess your trying to close another thread...because you don't have the answer. Do you?

John 8,... man that hurts your view. Ol well.

 

John 8:
Is one of the simplist books to explain.
He came to His own and His own received Him not, but as many as did He gave them power to become the sons of God. No, they wouldn't hear Him, because they had not faith. We back to faith and belief again James. We can't seem to get away from belief can we?

Peace James.

 

Bob,

I see you already deleted your post. You have done this before. Its a big game to you. To bad I copied your post in my replies and to the board. Nice game bud. Another great showing of Gods love. And you talk about others.

Here you go, you great exposer you...

Whoever got kicked off..must have been using copyright work

Found here...
http://www.baptistboard.com/postingrules.html

The post was public domain. That means free to the public Bob. If you Paid for this from a CD..the CD is copyright...but the words are not. Get it...you great exposer you.

I also made PDFs to send to the board if they want to see them.

You are a hoot and very dishonest

 

I suggest you back up and read the second post down on this page James.

 

see....

You can't even address the passage. I have asked countless times for your views on John 8..and you post on John 1. I'll not ask again. You have proven yourself in many ways.

Let me ask you this Bob....

What if you have to agree with the Bible? Will it really be that Bad?


The game is over...trust God.