Predestination: Meaning and Application

[Brother Bob]

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian
What I just said to Bob goes for you too... but let me just say that Rev. 14:6 is an apocalyptic genre of Scripture. I do not think the intent of that passage is suggest that the folks over in China and India are waiting on a angelic flyby to get saved. I think that passage will have meaning at a specific point in time in accordance with the unfolding of the endtimes, which may or may not be in my life time. The question is what is the normative or established means by which people get saved and what is an exception that has it purpose but is not normative. The angelic flyby is certainly not normative nor is the burning bush or the blinding light. Rational people you would expect would more than likely understand this and not try and force an exception as normative.

You seem to be more of a cynic than a learner... therefore I will not engage your last statement at this time but if you want an explanation I made several comments on the salvation of the unborn and small children in the thread entitled types of Calvinists.
In a civil society we commit insane people, we just take our time in getting out the nets. When it becomes obvious that you are dealing with someone who is on the fringe, give them a chance to clear out the cobwebs before you get out the net. Now with Bob, I am just about ready to get out the net

You always come through James; When he falls flat on his face you will run another way. Anyone with his head blown up that big has to burst. As always, you failed to see where he started with the negativity but that is you James.

Bob...

This has been a good thread, so please don't get out of hand and close this down.

Stay cool. If you need...take time and get a cold drink of coke...and come back in a hour.

Actually, I prefer to discuss theology with the unchurched, none of that deprogramming reprogramming stuff. What gets me is the use of language on this board. I would offer for your consideration one more metaphor, a news paper.

He prefers to talk to the unlearned and I don't blame him with the stuff he puts out. It won't stand up to the test of bible readers. He can't deprogram us so he ran into trouble.

Human to Human James, you know what I mean.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

You always come through James; When he falls flat on his face you will run another way. Anyone with his head blown up that big has to burst. As always, you failed to see where he started with the negativity but that is you James.

Bob...

This has been a good thread, so please don't get out of hand and close this down.

Stay cool. If you need...take time and get a cold drink of coke...and come back in a hour.

Bob,

Is that a picture of yourself? If so I can see how come you have had coronary issues. Dude, lighten up.... you look like you are about to explode yourself there pal.

BTW, you take this stuff way to personally... it is all good.

 

[webdog]

What does a person's avatar have to do with anything?

 

[Brother Bob]

Bob,

Is that a picture of yourself? If so I can see how come you have had coronary issues. Dude, lighten up.... you look like you are about to explode yourself there pal.

BTW, you take this stuff way to personally... it is all good.

You can't start you negative remarks and then say its all a joke. I take the Scriptures seriously myself. Maybe that is why you only want to take verses up so far and leave the rest off. I don't know what picture you are speaking of but I think you need to let a little air out before you continue. To hand pick who you will defend against is a little childish. To make fun of my avatar is completely foolish. I have had several compliments on it, as a matter of fact you are the first negative one I have had so far. It really comical that you have to stoop to my picture. lol

Your "human to human" remark says that God needs you and your works to save someone. You are placing yourself equal with God. You say you don't believe in works to save yourself but the other person needs your "works" to be saved. Now if that is sound doctrine I have some sea front property here in Ky I would love to sell you.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

I knew it was too good to be true. Stooping to calling me irrational, and a cynic not worthy of your time. Usually when there is "theologian" in a screen name, the enormous ego follows.

Who said anything about people in China waiting for an angelic fly-by? Strawman arguments will not get you too far. You ask what the "normative" means of salvation is. Faith comes by hearing (understanding), and that by the Word of God. I fail to see where man is attached to that at all.

If you are trying to suggest that the Bible teaches anything other than the necessity of the gospel for salvation, I would say that is a theological error. But when you go as far as to try to bring Rev. 14:6 into this discussion as some form of a remedy to the people who have not heard the gospel both in the past and presently, I call that irrational behavior. I am not ready to get the net with you but I was close there pal.

Why don't we try to work toward a better understanding of where you think I went wrong. Here is what I am suggesting, so tell me what your issue is with this hypothesis. My view is that God is sovereign and created the world with a predetermined outcome. That this world is the best of all available worlds or it is ideal inasmuch as God created it and he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, ie perfect. Therefore, he could have created the world another way but he chose to create this world the way he did. As a part of that creation man was endowed with a free moral agency. The fall resulted from man's rebellion. Sin has now entered the world and completely corrupts man's relationship with God the creator. While God elected some and not others, each one who is elect must believe on Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Those who are non-elect will not believe on Jesus Christ, either due to an inability or lack of opportunity. Regardless, man's will is not coerced or forced or violated in the process of regeneration and conversion to Christ. Apart from the gospel there is no opportunity for salvation.

 

[Blammo]

Somebody needs to take an anger management class, I mean look at that picture...

That's nice. Very good "Baptist_Pastor/Theologian".

You must be the bestest, smartest, most wonderfulest pastor ever. For you to suggest that Brother Bob, another pastor, is irrational, crazy, in need of being locked up, you must be very special. Good for you.

Now can we get back to "keeping it civil"?

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

You can't start you negative remarks and then say its all a joke. I take the Scriptures seriously myself. Maybe that is why you only want to take verses up so far and leave the rest off. I don't know what picture you are speaking of but I think you need to let a little air out before you continue. To hand pick who you will defend against is a little childish. To make fun of my avatar is completely foolish. I have had several compliments on it, as a matter of fact you are the first negative one I have had so far. It really comical that you have to stoop to my picture. lol

FOTFWL......

Oh Bob, that is funny.

You are not using even remotely sound hermeneutics and you want to be taken serious. I cannot address arguments that you are making when you are so dead set on what a passage says, when it says nothing of the sort. Why don't you take some time and tell my again what exactly you find wrong with my hypothesis and we'll take it from there. My view is that God is sovereign and created the world with a predetermined outcome. That this world is the best of all available worlds or it is ideal inasmuch as God created it and he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, ie perfect. Therefore, he could have created the world another way but he chose to create this world the way he did. As a part of that creation man was endowed with a free moral agency. The fall resulted from man's rebellion. Sin has now entered the world and completely corrupts man's relationship with God the creator. While God elected some and not others, each one who is elect must believe on Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Those who are non-elect will not believe on Jesus Christ, either due to an inability or lack of opportunity. Regardless, man's will is not coerced or forced or violated in the process of regeneration and conversion to Christ. Apart from the gospel there is no opportunity for salvation.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

That's nice. Very good "Baptist_Pastor/Theologian".

You must be the bestest, smartest, most wonderfulest pastor ever. For you to suggest that Brother Bob, another pastor, is irrational, crazy, in need of being locked up, you must be very special. Good for you.

Now can we get back to "keeping it civil"?

What can I say, they broke the mold. Blammo, your avatar is rather suspect too there pal... maybe you and Bob need to go to that class together...

 

[Brother Bob]

really nice guy, glad he is a calvinist.

Also theologian, if you won't admit to not taking all the Scriptures then what is the use. You need to quit your cherry picken.

 

[Blammo]

What can I say, they broke the mold. Blammo, your avatar is rather suspect too there pal... maybe you and Bob need to go to that class together...

Look at post#4 on page one of the thread. I had decided to place myself in the role of a student on this thread. Based on the initial post, I thought I may be able to learn something from you. Now you have revealed yourself. You are no different than anyone else in these debates. You think you have it all figured out, but you don't. That has upset you. So now you resort to personal attacks. Welcome to the club.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Look at post#4 on page one of the thread. I had decided to place myself in the role of a student on this thread. Based on the initial post, I thought I may be able to learn something from you. Now you have revealed yourself. You are no different than anyone else in these debates. You think you have it all figured out, but you don't. That has upset you. So now you resort to personal attacks. Welcome to the club.

Blammo,

I am real person just like anyother person. I have faults and I have fun and get bored and feel angry. The only differences with me and the nuclear posters on this board, is that I do not blow up on people. I have not blown up or been cruel to anyone here. I have not called anyone an ugly word or insulted their intelligence by suggesting they are stupid or even more possibly ignorant, ie without knowledge. What has happened here is that some of you guys bring baggage to this discussions. So quit projecting on to me what you have experienced in the past. Blammo, if you want to learn something you can do so regardless. Whether I am an ideal figure is another matter. Tell me where I have missed the point. Here is my hypothesis, am I right, or where did I go wrong? My view is that God is sovereign and created the world with a predetermined outcome. That this world is the best of all available worlds or it is ideal inasmuch as God created it and he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, ie perfect. Therefore, he could have created the world another way but he chose to create this world the way he did. As a part of that creation man was endowed with a free moral agency. The fall resulted from man's rebellion. Sin has now entered the world and completely corrupts man's relationship with God the creator. While God elected some and not others, each one who is elect must believe on Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Those who are non-elect will not believe on Jesus Christ, either due to an inability or lack of opportunity. Regardless, man's will is not coerced or forced or violated in the process of regeneration and conversion to Christ. Apart from the gospel there is no opportunity for salvation.

 

[saturneptune]

Mr Baptist Pastor/theologian extraordinaire,

Not really sure what your problem is, but it has nothing to do with being a Calvinist. Believing in the sovereignty of God and predestination does not require one to act like a raving clown.

If you are going to continue to screech, please join the Ariminian side.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Mr Baptist Pastor/theologian extraordinaire,

Not really sure what your problem is, but it has nothing to do with being a Calvinist. Believing in the sovereignty of God and predestination does not require one to act like a raving clown.

If you are going to continue to screech, please join the Ariminian side.

This is one sensitive group... I will be sure and get in touch with my feminine side before I post anything here in the future. Maybe I should get my wife to read my posts before I press that button SUBMIT REPLY...

Come on guys, you are starting to sound like a bunch of wet noise little grade schoolers. Is this a forum for theological discourse or is the politically correct baptist only forum?

Was that a blow up, man maybe I need to go to that class.... BOB

 

[saturneptune]

Since when does a theological discussion or debate require people to be rude? Especially from a pastor? If you met me, I doubt you would describe me as a snot nosed grade schooler with a feminine side. Words are cheap.

 

[Blammo]

Blammo,

I am real person just like anyother person. I have faults and I have fun and get bored and feel angry. The only differences with me and the nuclear posters on this board, is that I do not blow up on people. I have not blown up or been cruel to anyone here. I have not called anyone an ugly word or insulted their intelligence by suggesting they are stupid or even more possibly ignorant, ie without knowledge. What has happened here is that some of you guys bring baggage to this discussions. So quit projecting on to me what you have experienced in the past. Blammo, if you want to learn something you can do so regardless. Whether I am an ideal figure is another matter. Tell me where I have missed the point. Here is my hypothesis, am I right, or where did I go wrong? My view is that God is sovereign and created the world with a predetermined outcome. That this world is the best of all available worlds or it is ideal inasmuch as God created it and he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, ie perfect. Therefore, he could have created the world another way but he chose to create this world the way he did. As a part of that creation man was endowed with a free moral agency. The fall resulted from man's rebellion. Sin has now entered the world and completely corrupts man's relationship with God the creator. While God elected some and not others, each one who is elect must believe on Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Those who are non-elect will not believe on Jesus Christ, either due to an inability or lack of opportunity. Regardless, man's will is not coerced or forced or violated in the process of regeneration and conversion to Christ. Apart from the gospel there is no opportunity for salvation.

This is somewhat the way I see it.

God is sovereign and created the world with a foreknown outcome. That this world is the best of all available worlds or it is ideal inasmuch as God created it and he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, ie perfect. Therefore, he could have created the world another way but he chose to create this world the way he did. As a part of that creation man was endowed with a free-will. The fall resulted from Adam's disobedience to God. Sin has now entered the world and corrupts man's relationship with God the creator. While God elected some and not others, each one who is elect must believe on Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Those who are non-elect will have to be saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ to be grafted in, otherwise they will die in their sins and go to hell. Regardless, man's will is not coerced or forced or violated in the process of regeneration and conversion to Christ. Apart from the gospel there is no opportunity for salvation.

I may not have it exactly right, but, I have been saved by grace through faith, so at least I have that going for me.

 

[Brother Bob]

Is this a guy that never blows up or what?

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian


I am real person just like anyother person. I have faults

and I have fun and get bored and feel angry. The only

differences with me and the nuclear posters on this board,

is that I do not blow up on people. I have not blown up or

been cruel to anyone here. I have not called anyone an ugly

word or insulted their intelligence by suggesting they are

stupid or even more possibly ignorant, ie without

knowledge. What has happened here is that some of you

guys bring baggage to this discussions.

Get the net...

Somebody needs to take an anger management class, I

mean look at that picture...

Bob,

I have been reading your replies and your starting to prove

yourself to be irrational. Therefore what can I say to you?

You post entire section of Scripture as if it makes some

kind of point. You see in that passage what you want to see there. If you are going so far as to suggest that the

gospel is not necessary for salvation then I do not think

there is much more to discuss

What I just said to Bob goes for you too... but let me just

say that Rev. 14:6 is an apocalyptic genre of Scripture. I do

not think the intent of that passage is suggest that the

folks over in China and India are waiting on a angelic flyby

to get saved.

Now if I were to put a bug zapper outside my window, I can

know that there will be some bugs that get zapped and

others that do not get zapped for whatever reason. If I

were to have foreknowledge of the individual bugs and their

names and I decided to go ahead and put the bug zapper outside my window

Hey we are all doing our part here to stand for biblical

truth. Just because someone opens up the Book and

proceeds to talk about what is written does not make him a

gospel preacher. Lord help us when we are having to argue

that the gospel is necessary for salvation. That is the day

we live in though and that is why these little back rooms of

theology are so important. It helps you know what the

public is thinking. Actually, I prefer to discuss theology with

the unchurched, none of that deprogramming

reprogramming stuff

In a civil society we commit insane people, we just take our

time in getting out the nets. When it becomes obvious that

you are dealing with someone who is on the fringe, give

them a chance to clear out the cobwebs before you get out

the net. Now with Bob, I am just about ready to get out

the net.


Was that a blow up, man maybe I need to go to that

class.... BOB

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Since when does a theological discussion or debate require people to be rude? Especially from a pastor? If you met me, I doubt you would describe me as a snot nosed grade schooler with a feminine side. Words are cheap.

Hello, it was a joke. For the record, I personally have been attact just now by you now for the second time, and do you see me getting all upset? On the contrary I am trying to show you that you can be bigger than reactionary statements. But for the record, if I hurt your feelings then I am so sorry. I apologize to everyone especially those are seriously offended both morally and socially for my apparent break in form from what otherwise has been a decent track record.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

This is somewhat the way I see it.

God is sovereign and created the world with a foreknown outcome. That this world is the best of all available worlds or it is ideal inasmuch as God created it and he is omniscient, omnipotent, and omnipresent, ie perfect. Therefore, he could have created the world another way but he chose to create this world the way he did. As a part of that creation man was endowed with a free-will. The fall resulted from Adam's disobedience to God. Sin has now entered the world and corrupts man's relationship with God the creator. While God elected some and not others, each one who is elect must believe on Jesus Christ in order to be saved. Those who are non-elect will have to be saved by grace through faith in the finished work of Christ to be grafted in, otherwise they will die in their sins and go to hell. Regardless, man's will is not coerced or forced or violated in the process of regeneration and conversion to Christ. Apart from the gospel there is no opportunity for salvation.

I may not have it exactly right, but, I have been saved by grace through faith, so at least I have that going for me.

That is the only thing I have going for me.

 

[Baptist_Pastor/Theologian]

Is this a guy that never blows up or what?

Baptist_Pastor/Theologian


I am real person just like anyother person. I have faults

and I have fun and get bored and feel angry. The only

differences with me and the nuclear posters on this board,

is that I do not blow up on people. I have not blown up or

been cruel to anyone here. I have not called anyone an ugly

word or insulted their intelligence by suggesting they are

stupid or even more possibly ignorant, ie without

knowledge. What has happened here is that some of you

guys bring baggage to this discussions.

Get the net...

Somebody needs to take an anger management class, I

mean look at that picture...

Bob,

I have been reading your replies and your starting to prove

yourself to be irrational. Therefore what can I say to you?

You post entire section of Scripture as if it makes some

kind of point. You see in that passage what you want to see there. If you are going so far as to suggest that the

gospel is not necessary for salvation then I do not think

there is much more to discuss

What I just said to Bob goes for you too... but let me just

say that Rev. 14:6 is an apocalyptic genre of Scripture. I do

not think the intent of that passage is suggest that the

folks over in China and India are waiting on a angelic flyby

to get saved.

Now if I were to put a bug zapper outside my window, I can

know that there will be some bugs that get zapped and

others that do not get zapped for whatever reason. If I

were to have foreknowledge of the individual bugs and their

names and I decided to go ahead and put the bug zapper outside my window

Hey we are all doing our part here to stand for biblical

truth. Just because someone opens up the Book and

proceeds to talk about what is written does not make him a

gospel preacher. Lord help us when we are having to argue

that the gospel is necessary for salvation. That is the day

we live in though and that is why these little back rooms of

theology are so important. It helps you know what the

public is thinking. Actually, I prefer to discuss theology with

the unchurched, none of that deprogramming

reprogramming stuff

In a civil society we commit insane people, we just take our

time in getting out the nets. When it becomes obvious that

you are dealing with someone who is on the fringe, give

them a chance to clear out the cobwebs before you get out

the net. Now with Bob, I am just about ready to get out

the net.


Was that a blow up, man maybe I need to go to that

class.... BOB

Man that kinda reminds me of the final judgment. Can you imagine everything you have said being brought against you. And for the record, those are blown out of proportion. I was just making light hearted remarks there, but I can see you do not appreciate my humor. So, I am sorry that I offended you.

 

[Brother Bob]

They are not blown out of proportion. They are copied and pasted of your exact statements. Why not be man enough to admit that you too stoop to name calling and "get the net" and "look at that picture". You call that humor. No one else does. You apologize and add your exempt to it, some apology.