Predestination: Meaning and Application

[Brother Bob]

I will leave you with this James;
John 8

23: And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So it looks like they could of believed but chose not to.

Peace

 

[Jarthur001]

we shall see if this holdsup...

I'll be back later. I need a coke

 

[Brother Bob]

Yes i know..you changed it. But I sent a copy just as you wanted. I also have PDFs.

You would love to kick me off and have tried many times. They may do this at some point Bob. But I will stay posting on the grace of Gods great love to us as long as they let me. You will never get me to back down from my faith be it .."non Baptist when in fact I am and I had to get others that know I am speak for me and my church"..."Thoughts of killing me and scary my wife to death"...."or exposing me for posting public domain."

dishonest not able to defend you views...you also go after the person.

You didn't back up and read the post but thats ok. This is crazy talk James. You are one weird dude.

So, you are a Calvinist?

 

[Jarthur001]

My mistake James;
I didn't see where you put the Heading of London Baptist Confession. sorry
I still think this is supposed to be a discussion between us and not London Baptist Confession. If I wanted that I would just download it.

1st...

If you will look this was address not to you but to bound...before you went off the deep end.

 

[Jarthur001]

I give you my post..again from page 41.

Notice the words of Christ.

Bob,

This is spiritually dead and places man in his sin nature, controled by sin. Death means cannot respond to God on his own. This picture is shown thoughout Gods Word. Bob I have shown you this many many times before. One time it was 4 full pages of verse showing this. I'll keep it short this time.

1st.. Jesus spoke to the religious leaders of His day and asked a rhetorically question.

1)"why do you not understand what I say?

He then answered...

2) "because you cannot bear to hear my word"

His point was not that they were physically deaf, but that they were spiritually dead. They could hear...but could not understand.

John 8..notice how much they hated Christ and even how they wanted to kill Him. They thought He was of the devil. They thought He was tought false doctrine. Boy have I heard all this before.

But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I have heard of God: this did not Abraham. Ye do the deeds of your father.

Then said they to him, We be not born of fornication; we have one Father, [even] God.

Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] <------1

because ye cannot hear my word. <--------2

Ye are of [your] father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

And because I tell [you] the truth, ye believe me not.<---they cannot believe, becaue they do not understand, just as Christ told them above

Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?<---they cannot believe, becaue they do not understand, just as Christ told them above

He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear [them] not, because ye are not of God.

In Christ..James

 

[bound]

So, bound;
Those who are saved are the "nail" according to the beliefs put forward on this board, if I understand your posts. God is the "cause" or hammer and we as the nail have not choice what so ever but after being "hit" by God we are drove into the wood or "saved".

Grace and Peace Brother Bob,

Pretty much what the Calvinist position posits is man as a non-participatory passive 'element' in the course of God's Providence. We ultimately cease to be persons; cease to have choice, responsibility or the need to participate in the unfolding of our own salvation as well as the salvation of others and all under the claim that to suggest otherwise we challenge the Sovereignty of God over His Creation.

It's an interesting position. This is what is called 'unlimited determinism' and frankly I've never confronted it outside of Islamic Fatalism.

Now as I see it we the non-calvinist are "influenced" by God through the Holy Spirit to serve Him but we can consider the idea and make a choice whether we want to serve Him or not. In other words we can reject the Grace or we can through faith receive the Grace.

If we take the position that human beings are created in the image of God and in that image hold a certain dignity as the crown of creation I find it unacceptable that we don't share self-direction with the Angels.

Now if I have understood your post you have hit it right on the head and is what we have said all along. God influences all men for they are all His creation and created in the same manner, none were created with more choice than another or more ability to reject than the other but the same. The influence is the same but it interacts with the person of who God in His Sovereignty made us that way. In our reaction to His influence we either choose to believe Him or we do not. If that is what you have just said then I wholeheartedly agree with you.

Exactly.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[bound]

Bound,

Thanks for your reply. Your 1st post, there was just to much guess work for me to address. I started typing it and I had over 7 pages in MS Word and I had not past the hafeway part. Your post was built on the premise that your view of Calvinism is the right view. I thought it be better if we take a Calvinist view, being that it is the subject you tried to address.

Grace and Peace Jarthur001,

I drew the three basic assumptions from Classic Calvinist Theory. I'm curious as to what you found problematic?

Let's take it piece by piece if you don't mind. Do you disagree that Calvinism holds these three convictions?

1. That the sovereignty of God requires unconditional election and thus precludes conditional election?
2. That total depravity precludes the response of faith from a sinner unless he is first regenerated by the Holy Spirit?
3. That salvation is free precludes conditional election?

These three convictions appears to be the three points in dispute between must posters on this thread. If you don't hold to these three convictions you have to conceed your claim to Calvinism and simply argue another point. Baptist Theology appears to hold to a conditional election which ultimately challenges Calvinism.

We can keep it simple. I hate flooding.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[bound]

I will leave you with this James;
John 8

23: And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world.
24: I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

So it looks like they could of believed but chose not to.

Peace

Grace and Peace Brother Bob,

I think anyone who does not come with philosophical presuppostions that would prevent agreement would agree that influence and response is the way human beings deal with one another. Those who have not already made up their minds, to the contrary, would also most likely accept the idea that God would work with us, as human beings, within the framework of an influence and response relationship. The question for the Christian is: Will it stand the test of Scripture?

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:12-13

Gordon Clark [Calvinist] remarks concerning this passage:

Now, among the many biblical passages that deny will, there is one so clear and so pointed that I do not see how anyone could possibly misunderstand it. In Philippians 2:12-13 the Apostle Paul tells us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Note: any consistent unlimited determinism would interpret these verses within a cause and effect framework. I can see why they would do this. However, these verses present no problem when interpreted in keeping with the influence and response model. So ultimately it's not the verses that create the problem it's the oversimplified interpretation.

Peace and God Bless.

 

[Jarthur001]

Grace and Peace Jarthur001,

I drew the three basic assumptions from Classic Calvinist Theory. I'm curious as to what you found problematic?

Let's take it piece by piece if you don't mind. Do you disagree that Calvinism holds these three convictions?

1. That the sovereignty of God requires unconditional election and thus precludes conditional election?
2. That total depravity precludes the response of faith from a sinner unless he is first regenerated by the Holy Spirit?
3. That salvation is free precludes conditional election?

These three convictions appears to be the three points in dispute between must posters on this thread. If you don't hold to these three convictions you have to conceed your claim to Calvinism and simply argue another point. Baptist Theology appears to hold to a conditional election which ultimately challenges Calvinism.

We can keep it simple. I hate flooding.

Peace and God Bless.

Hello Bound,
One by one....point one..

That the sovereignty of God requires unconditional election and thus precludes conditional election?

1) With this statement you decree to God who God is and what He does based on a doctrine system. You have it backwards. The Bible precludes conditional election.
"For by grace we are saved though faith and not of works..." Therefore a Calvinist believes it.

2)and..You keep using the word "requires" and this would obligate the CREATOR to the CREATURE which no Calvinist would ever do.

3) and...unconditional election is not based on Gods soverignty, but rather God pleasure. Gods soverignty gives God the power to carry it out.

And this is why I posted the Baptist Creed. Unlike what you seem to think, Baptist were very Calvinist when we were 1st formed. Grained we have slipped from this and most are not. But don't get rid of us just yet. So...this is the creed showing this view which I posted before. This time I will bold key words you may have overlooked.


Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling

1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )

4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )


I will wait for your reply to this one. After we agree that this is a better view Of Calvinism, we will address the next point.


In Christ..james

 

[Jarthur001]

Hello Bound,

I think anyone who does not come with philosophical presuppostions that would prevent agreement would agree that influence and response is the way human beings deal with one another.

Those who have not already made up their minds, to the contrary, would also most likely accept the idea that God would work with us, as human beings, within the framework of an influence and response relationship.

The question for the Christian is: Will it stand the test of Scripture?

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. - Philippians 2:12-13

Gordon Clark [Calvinist] remarks concerning this passage:

Now, among the many biblical passages that deny will, there is one so clear and so pointed that I do not see how anyone could possibly misunderstand it. In Philippians 2:12-13 the Apostle Paul tells us to "work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure."

Note: any consistent unlimited determinism would interpret these verses within a cause and effect framework. I can see why they would do this. However, these verses present no problem when interpreted in keeping with the influence and response model. So ultimately it's not the verses that create the problem it's the oversimplified interpretation.

Humanisim wogwash at its best.

 

[Brother Bob]

CORRECTION!

Quote:
“But these, as creatures without reason, born mere animals to be taken and destroyed, railing in matters whereof they are ignorant, shall in their destroying surely be destroyed,” II Peter 2:12.


I can't believe you would ask me to answer this one as being someone who had not choice. As I said "time and chance has happened to all" and those are the words of the Lord, not mine. This is Sodom and Gomorrah. man oh man!!!
These people where homosexuals of which had turned from the natural use of the opposite sex and turned to their own and found pleasure in doing so so God hardened their hearts. Jeepers, is this the kind of Scriptures that blogger used to defend his point of having no choice? Are you sure you want to defend this post?

This is a correction for I put the name bound where it should of been blogger. Sorry bound was mistake by going to fast.

 

[Brother Bob]

BP/T
"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

10: And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
11: And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: (Acts 19:10-11)

What??????

 

[Brother Bob]

“For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ,” Jude 4.

7: Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. Jude 7

What???? It was written there would be ungodly men come among us. What???

 

[Brother Bob]

“God gave them up unto a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not fitting,” Rom. 1:28; and the wicked, “after his hardness and impenitent heart treasures up for himself wrath in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God,” Rom. 2:5.

27: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28: And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Seems you spend an awful lot of time on Homos!!! Why? Would you give me this much Scripture against you?

1: Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.
2: But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.
3: And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4: Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?
5: But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God

This one explains itself.

“Depart from me, ye cursed, into the eternal fire which is prepared for the Devil and his angels,” Matt. 25:41

38: When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?
39: Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?
40: And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.
41: Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

End of time God will separate the sheep from the goats. This has reached the silly stage. I think I will quit here and you can tell blogger he sure is deep, and for you to find it interesting and believable says a lot for you too.

 

[Brother Bob]

Influence and Decision

Means we believe that the Holy Spirit has to work with you (as in all men), means we believe you are saved by Grace, through faith. (you must do as Jesus said "believe").

Its called Free-Will because we don't believe its forced on us.

I like that

 

[Jarthur001]

10: And this continued by the space of two years; so that all they which dwelt in Asia heard the word of the Lord Jesus, both Jews and Greeks.
11: And God wrought special miracles by the hands of Paul: (Acts 19:10-11)

What??????

"Now when they had gone through Phrygia and the region of Galatia, they were forbidden by the Holy Spirit to preach the word in Asia" (Acts 16:6)

Paul was headed to Asia to preach The word, and Holy Spirit stopped them for a time. This was at the beginning of the gospel going out. Do you think anyone died from the start of the forbidden time and the end of the forbidden time? If they had not heard that Christ died for their sins could they become saved? When Holy Spirit stopped them the very next week in Asia people died without hearing the gospel.

 

[Brother Bob]

I don't know, do you? It was only 3 chapters later that it is recorded that they did preach but they may have been allowed to preach before that chapter was finished. They may have just been stopped on that one trip because the Holy Spirit was protecting their lives or harm to them. Who knows, I don't.

You going to church today or are you a sick man not able to go? I am sick but always go unless I am under the knife.

 

[Jarthur001]

I don't know, do you? It was only 3 chapters later that it is recorded that they did preach but they may have been allowed to preach before that chapter was finished. They may have just been stopped on that one trip because the Holy Spirit was protecting their lives or harm to them. Who knows, I don't.

You going to church today or are you a sick man not able to go? I am sick but always go unless I am under the knife.

28 BC Augustus' census of Rome (70 to 100 million counted). According to history books Asia had the much population.

Having people groups that reached into the millions, I am sure at leaset one person died..right?

As to you asking about me going to church... of course i'm going. I'm ready..drinking my coffee and will leave in 1 half hour.

and.......I'm glad you go when your sick.


why do you ask?

 

[Brother Bob]

why do you ask?

Trying to start the day off on a good note.
Have a good day.

As far as Asia goes I am sure they were dying all the time but Paul wasn't the only preacher around.

 

[AresMan]

Just remember, Bob. Not everyone lives in your timezone.