Lost persons are unsaved, so would be on the high way to hell....
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Predestination unto salvation
- Thread starter JonC
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Are you saying that none of the 3000 saved at preaching by peter were born again? How can one be saved and not be born again?
ALL theology is due to human reasoning and understanding, since none of us here are Apostles, but Calvinism rightly understood explains the Gospel in the best way that we can currently do it this side of heaven.
Your view is not how Corporate Election has traditionally been understood, as its how reformed stated it as being held!
k.
Are 'vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory' ever truly bound for hell? No. They're 'lost sheep'.
I am referring to non elected lost, you seem to mean the elect lost!
Here is one view:
"The Hebrew word for "elect" (bahir) is normally used in the plural, and thus refers collectively of Israel. While there are times in Scripture where God chooses individuals for a specific historical task or purpose (e.g. Cyrus in Isaiah 45:1), these are passages that have nothing to do with God deciding who will be saved, thus, they are of no relevance to this topic. The corporate concept of election in the Old Testament is the context (he claims) which one must view the references to election in the New Testament. Supporters of the corporate view of election point to the New Testament language that explicitly discusses election, which they say is always corporate. One scholar says "one will look in vain for an overt use of the language of election unto salvation in reference to an individual."
I think that is what you are talking about. The problem is there are many on all sides that view election as corporate and individual as well.
I never claimed to hold a Reformed or Arminian (the view I presented is one type of Arminian view) position.
I think that Scripture most often speaks of corporate election. I can understand the reasoning people deny individual election, but it seems that denying corporate election is a direct denial of Scripture.
I believe God elects corporately (God has chosen a people, plural) and individual (looking back, I can say that God chose me before the foundation of the earth).
I think that God chooses individuals that will make up His corporate Body, disagreement is when does He choose us and on what basis does he choose?
All of us were goats before any of us became sheep!
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
No, this is incorrect. Foreknew is not a foreknowledge as in foresight. This is your big error in this theological matter. You redefine the word.
Those whom God foreknew he predestined would refer to God knowing them in same way knew saved Israel, as those in a covenant relationship to come with Him..... He directly caused and brought to pass that relationship, he chose us to be in Christ regardless of our state at that time.
I know what Reformed means by using the term corporate election when viewed through the biblical language of the local church builded together as the habitation of God.
That is not how you and others use it.
I have seen Reformed recoil from such suggestions, but he can speak for himself.
He affirmed the confessional language already.
The false ideas of a corporate no name election are ludicrous.
Yes David,this is a growing root error prevalent in our day. It leads to several sister errors.
George Antonios
Well-Known Member
A) God can't foreknow, in the sense of intimate salvific knowledge, people who are not in Christ and un-redeemed sinners. You talk about an "error in this theological matter".
B) I had already answered you in another thread by showing that God's foreknowledge in the Bible is just foresight:
Acts 15:18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
And those works include the wicked which God has made:
Pro 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.
Put the 2 verses together and you have God foreknowing (foresight) the wicked.
The problem you dear brethren have is that you have INFUSED Bible words with a theologically external connotation.
Reformed1689
Well-Known Member
Look up the Greek George. The word does not mean foresight.
Pardon, mon ami. Perhaps my choice of words or grammar needs to be tightened up a bit. Allow me a riposte.
1. Those who are not elect are the same as those who will not place their faith in Christ. They are salvifically lost. They may be able to find their way to their favorite Thai restaurant by GPS but they will never find their way to eternal life.
2. Those that are elect, but have not yet come to faith in Christ, are not lost salvifically, they have yet to be called in-time. Paul had some harsh words for this group (including himself) prior to their faith in Christ. He called them "children of wrath" (Ephesians 1:3). That is not really courteous language for those who were predestined for salvation, but Paul used that type of language anyway. So, yes, I believe there is a difference between the eternally lost and lost sheep. I accept your humble and gracious correction.
Now, as far as calling those in point #2 "lost", I will concede they are not lost in the mind of God. Practically speaking, we have no idea who is elect and who is not. It is not our place to know. We should not even try to know. Theologically, I know that only the Elect will come to faith in Christ. However, lacking perfect knowledge all I can do, all any of us can do is to proclaim Christ as the Holy Spirit gives opportunity.
I hope that explanation helps.
except that we are giving the term the meaning given by regarded greek lexicons....
Think a problem is that while all of us are lost sinners by our physical birth into likeness of Adam, as fallen sinners, we who will get saved are still in the same spiritual condition until we actually experience being reborn again, even though God views us as already in the Beloved....
Let me make sure I am being understood correctly. Here is what I believe scripture teaches.
1. God doe not create a group called "the Elect" and then added to the group those who choose Him.
2. God predestined some to eternal life from all eternity (Acts 13:48; Ephesians 1:4).
3. Those whom God predestined are called in-time by the Holy Spirit and gloriously saved.
4. Those that are saved are numbered with the Elect.
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