Featured Predestination

Yes after we believe God does those things to us and for us .

 

In 2 thes 2 .13 ..which ' beginning ' do you believe Paul is referring to ?

 

Which ' beginning ' when ? beginning of time ? beginning of tea break ? beginning of creation ? beginning of ministry ? beginning of when Paul first preached the Gospel?

 

Can you show what this ' outward call ' is that isnt just a call to do something or the call of the Gospel ? it sounds like your adding to the text the idea that this call is a mystical special inward signal to the ear of a frozen chosen ?

 

Are YOU saying that you are not a "new creation"? Are you saying you are still a slave to sin and indulging the flesh?
I am a new creation and I am no longer a slave to sin. Therefore the process of REBIRTH has begun in me. I never claimed to be GLORIFIED, so I have no idea why you would ask me such a question.

 

not chosen to be a saved Apostle!

 

By Jesus Himself, but Judas chosen to be the one to betray Jesus!

 

Yes OK but what about the others?

 

Could it be that the way they were saved , By believing the truth and through sanctification as apposed to another means? And that from the beginning is when Paul first preached to them ..So from the beginning ( all along ) they were chosen through believing the truth

the predominately Gentile congregations of Paul’s day were constantly being told they were not the elect of God, but instead barbarian rejects. The Judaizes of the first century insisted that only Jews were chosen by God and Paul spent much time attempting to debunk this commonly held false belief. ( Galations for example )

In the “Jew versus Gentile” context of Paul’s ministry he often references himself and the Jewish apostles as “us” and “our” in contrast to the Gentile believers as “you” and “your.” For instance, in verse 14 Paul seems to indicate that “you” (the Gentile believers) were called “through our” (the Jewish Apostles’) gospel. Therefore, it makes perfect sense, in Paul’s context, to thank God for his Gentile audience being chosen, or engrafted (Rom. 11:13-24), to salvation through faith. This, after all, is the mystery which had been hidden for generations which is just now being made known through men like Paul (Eph. 3:1-11).

In short, the “Apostle to the Gentiles” is likely combating the false view that the Gentiles were not the elect of God by writing this affirmation of God’s choice to include them from the very beginning

 

There are a number of reasons why Romans 8 is not a "golden chain of salvation":

1) Paul doesn't say it's an order. He enumerates things God does, but to frame his enumeration as an order of salvation requires putting on theological lenses. Proof: you can't show from the text itself that there's an order there. Maybe you could if you had an order-marking expression similar to the one in Ephesians 1:13: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise; but you don't have that in Romans 8:29-30.

2) How to explain that Paul, in the supposedly crucial passage outlining the order of salvation, omits regeneration (Titus 3:5) and sanctification of the Spirit (1Pe.1:2, 1Co.6:11)?!

3) A contrary "order" [if I am to follow the Calvinist framing of Romans 8] to the one supposedly displayed in Romans 8:29-30 is given, not once, but several times:

Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.
And
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
In the two verses above, in context, without any pre-fabricated theological lenses, calling comes before election but in Romans 8:29-30, calling comes after predestination:
Rom 8:30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called:

In Acts 2:23, foreknowledge is listed after "predestination":
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
But in Romans 8:29 foreknowledge is listed before predestination:
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate

In 2Thessalonians 2:13 and (according to Calvinists) 1Peter 1:2, sanctification follows election:
2Th 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

but in Jude 1 sanctification precedes calling:
Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called:

In 2Timothy 2:19, the order is salvation then calling
2Ti 1:9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,

In 2Peter 1:10, it's calling then election
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The "order" is such a mess and so hard to pin down that Pink has to pull off theological gymnastics when he hits Jude 1, where, commenting on the "order of the verbs" he is reduced to equating sanctification with election: "The order of the verbs here is most significant. The 'sanctification' by the Father manifestly speaks of our eternal 'election'" [Pink, Exodus, p.18].

Lest anyone say that the confusion is only in the mind of the non-Calvinist, I remind my Calvinist brethren that even they can't come to an agreement on this elusive "ordo salutis". Herman Hoeksema admits that "there has always been a good deal of difference of opinion with regard to the order in which the benefits of salvation are bestowed upon the people of God" [Hoeksema, Dogmatics, p.446].

4) Nothing in Romans 8, nor in any other passage, ever specifically tell us when predestination happens (remember, we're talking about predestinsation, not election, unless you wish to equate the two, and then we run into more problems than we solve).

So, that's how, to answer your question.
Now, in light of all the above, how do you maintain your view that Romans 8:29-30 is an ordo salutis?

 

Predestination is of existing saints to adoption/glorification, not sinners to conversion. (Eph. 1:5, 11; Rom. 8:23, 29-30)

3. Election is to service, calling and purpose, not to salvation. (Isa. 42:1; Acts 9:15; Rom. 11:28)

4. Adoption is the future redemption of the body, not conversion. (Rom. 8:23, 15-17; Gal. 4:1-6)

5. Sinners become sons of God through the new birth, not through adoption. (John 1:12-13)

6. There are 2 callings: Gospel and vocational, not inward or outward or effectual or ineffectual, etc… (2 Thess. 2:14; Eph. 4:1; Rom. 8:28; 2 Cor. 5:20)

 

Paraphrase of the reply (stripped of the hollowly grave-sounding "what you fail to acknowledge is":

1. But look at the repeating pairs!
2. At the same time, I acknowledge that the order isn't a comprehensive one.
3. Matthew is different than Paul, but, oh wait, Matthew is like Paul.
4. I will keep looking at Romans 8:29 and Ephesians 1:5 (& Matthew 20:14, 22:16) through my Calvinist theological lenses because points 1-3 are a good counter-argument to post # 134.

Alright then.

 

Well, the case IS a little stronger than that. I mean unless all of the events (Foreknew, Predestined, Called, Justified, Glorified) are simultaneous, then there must be SOME order to them. If there is SOME order to them, then it is hard to argue that "foreknew" does not come first (without challenging omniscience). If there is SOME order, then it is hard to argue that Glorified does not come last (how does it make sense for God to Glorify the not yet Justified ... I don't think that there is any scripture to support that.) So with FOREKNEW required to be first and GLORIFIED required to be last, that only leaves one to question the order of "Predestined, Called, Justified" between them. Once again, to be Called and/or Justified before being Predestined seems like a "married bachelor". Predestination, by definition occurs BEFORE an event, so how can it come AFTER "Called/Justified".
That gives us "Foreknew, Predestined, (something, something), Glorified" as the required order to avoid a "married bachelor" or an "unknowing omniscient God" or a "Glorified unJustified person". Thus the only possible question about ORDER is whether "Called" and "Justified" should be reversed if placing the so-called "Golden Chain" in chronological order.

Seeing how we can be sure that 3 of the 5 are in the correct chronological order, what scriptural evidence supports the idea that Justification precedes Calling?

 

That is actually a better answer, good job (I don't mean to sound condescending, I truly appreciate the fact that you laid out a good effort/argument). Nevertheless, it is indeed just "a little stronger" (emphasis mine), as you put it. Quickly:

Because the event in question that is predestinated comes AFTER "called/justified".
The fact that that simple solution was nowhere on your radar is a testimony to the power of wearing theological lenses that colour everything we see. (And I'm aware that I also wear such lenses often)
There was logical misstep in your argument. "predestination" must, by definition, come before the particular event that is predestinated, not just before any "an event". You went from a generic "an event" to a specific one: "called/justified", as if that were the only possible thing that could ever be predestinated. However, in the passage, it wasn't the calling/justification that was predestinated, it was the conforming to the image of the son: Ro.8:29 he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son - i.e. having our body bears the physical image of Christ's body at the resurrection.
So what is predestinated is an event that does come after predestination, but one which also comes after calling/justification.

Whatever the order, predestination is never of a lost man unto salvation, but of a saved man unto obtaining a resurrection body like unto Christ's (Ro.8:29, Eph.1:5) and of being to the praise of his glory (Eph.1:11-12). Those things are not salvation.
Plus, remember that no verse ever specifically tells us when predestination (unto the adoption of our body) actually happens, so we can't just lightly place it back in eternity past.

So when laying out an order, these truths must be respected.

I'm a former Calvinist, and I know how hard it is to take off the glasses, especially after having once thought to have discovered the deeper truth of Calvinism, long enough to let the text speak for itself with defining cross-references.

 

Chosen by Jesus to be saved and His Apostles!