predestination

[Me4Him]

Please drop this heretical and blasphemous stuff. Your posts sound more and more like skypair's.

Your argument is not with me, but with scripture.

 

[historyb]

I suppose Jesus's death for the sins of the "whole world" that they "MIGHT BE" saved was a "WORTHLESS" effort on his part because God didn't have the "WILL" to save the "whole world"??? :tonofbricks:

Christ didn't die for everyone, only for His sheep

 

[Jarthur001]

Does your will override God's when you sin, since Scripture is very clear it is God's will that we do not sin?

A poor understanding of sin and Gods will.

Please read the 1689..

Chapter 5: Of Divine Providence

1._____ God the good Creator of all things, in his infinite power and wisdom doth uphold, direct, dispose, and govern all creatures and things, from the greatest even to the least, by his most wise and holy providence, to the end for the which they were created, according unto his infallible foreknowledge, and the free and immutable counsel of his own will; to the praise of the glory of his wisdom, power, justice, infinite goodness, and mercy.
( Hebrews 1:3; Job 38:11; Isaiah 46:10, 11; Psalms 135:6; Matthew 10:29-31; Ephesians 1:11 )
2._____ Although in relation to the foreknowledge and decree of God, the first cause, all things come to pass immutably and infallibly; so that there is not anything befalls any by chance, or without his providence; yet by the same providence he ordereth them to fall out according to the nature of second causes, either necessarily, freely, or contingently.
( Acts 2:23; Proverbs 16:33; Genesis 8:22 )

3._____ God, in his ordinary providence maketh use of means, yet is free to work without, above, and against them at his pleasure.
( Acts 27:31, 44; Isaiah 55:10, 11; Hosea 1:7; Romans 4:19-21; Daniel 3:27 )

4._____ The almighty power, unsearchable wisdom, and infinite goodness of God, so far manifest themselves in his providence, that his determinate counsel extendeth itself even to the first fall, and all other sinful actions both of angels and men; and that not by a bare permission, which also he most wisely and powerfully boundeth, and otherwise ordereth and governeth, in a manifold dispensation to his most holy ends; yet so, as the sinfulness of their acts proceedeth only from the creatures, and not from God, who, being most holy and righteous, neither is nor can be the author or approver of sin.
( Romans 11:32-34; 2 Samuel 24:1, 1 Chronicles 21:1; 2 Kings 19:28; Psalms 76;10; Genesis 1:20; Isaiah 10:6, 7, 12; Psalms 1:21; 1 John 2:16 )

5._____ The most wise, righteous, and gracious God doth oftentimes leave for a season his own children to manifold temptations and the corruptions of their own hearts, to chastise them for their former sins, or to discover unto them the hidden strength of corruption and deceitfulness of their hearts, that they may be humbled; and to raise them to a more close and constant dependence for their support upon himself; and to make them more watchful against all future occasions of sin, and for other just and holy ends. So that whatsoever befalls any of his elect is by his appointment, for his glory, and their good.
( 2 Chronicles 32:25, 26, 31; 2 Corinthians 12:7-9; Romans 8:28 )

6._____ As for those wicked and ungodly men whom God, as the righteous judge, for former sin doth blind and harden; from them he not only withholdeth his grace, whereby they might have been enlightened in their understanding, and wrought upon their hearts; but sometimes also withdraweth the gifts which they had, and exposeth them to such objects as their corruption makes occasion of sin; and withal, gives them over to their own lusts, the temptations of the world, and the power of Satan, whereby it comes to pass that they harden themselves, under those means which God useth for the softening of others.
( Romans 1:24-26, 28; Romans 11:7, 8; Deuteronomy 29:4; Matthew 13:12; Deuteronomy 2:30; 2 Kings 8:12, 13; Psalms 81:11, 12; 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12; Exodus 8:15, 32; Isaiah 6:9, 10; 1 Peter 2:7, 8 )

7._____ As the providence of God doth in general reach to all creatures, so after a more special manner it taketh care of his church, and disposeth of all things to the good thereof.
( 1 Timothy 4:10; Amos 9:8, 9; Isaiah 43:3-5 )

We went over this just a week ago.

If God allows sin, it is within His will yet is not the cause of sin.

 

[Jarthur001]

Christ didn't die for everyone, only for His sheep

Sounds like you have read ALL of your Bible in context.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by OldRegular
God chose some to salvation in Jesus Christ before the foundation of the world [Ephesians 1:3-6]. These he will regenerate and impart to them saving faith. [Ephesians 2:1-8]

Response by Webdog
If they are "in" Jesus Christ, they have already had faith.

The statement simply means, to those with discernment, that Jesus Christ is the means of Salvation. You also might try reading the referenced Scripture.

 

[Robert Snow]

I wrote an excerpt from a book above but if God wills that none would perish, why do they?

Simple, God, in His sovereignty, gives man free will to either reject or accept the Gospel.

BTW, there is no reason to continue to debate this with you or any other Calvinist. It is a waste of time. It's like arguing with a Jehovah's Witness. They have formed their beliefs by taking certain verses and applying them to fit their preconceived ideas. Therefore, I refuse to continue to argue and thereby cause strife among God's people, which is a sin. We will just disagree with each other on this point. Have a great day!

 

[Robert Snow]

Please drop this heretical and blasphemous stuff. Your posts sound more and more like skypair's.

You would say this to a fellow believer in Christ? God help you! :tear:

 

[Rippon]

I suppose Jesus's death for the sins of the "whole world" that they "MIGHT BE" saved was a "WORTHLESS" effort on his part because God didn't have the "WILL" to save the "whole world"??? :tonofbricks:

God's will is not contingent on what the response of man may be.

This "might be" business is hypothetical universalism which the Scriptures do not teach.Also, you depend too much on KJV terminology which clouds your mind when trying to reason things out.You are a 21st century guy who occasionally uses basically 16th century words which are not as accurate as the wording in more modern versions.

The Lord did not will that each and every person -- past,present and future be saved. As a matter of biblical fact there are a number who are ordained for everlasting destruction.

If you think a passage like 2 Peter 3:9 will come to your rescue -- think again.Deal with the intended audience which Peter was addressing and also the nonsensical stance of God willing every single person -- head-for-head to be saved.If something is His will -- it will be done -- period.

 

[Rippon]

All Scripture Quoted Is From The TNIV

Your argument is not with me, but with scripture.

So I would like to see your support from Scripture that the will of a puny human trumps God's will.

Meanwhile, I'll leave you with a few passages which teach the real deal.

Job 23:13 : But he stands alone, and who can oppose him? He does whatever pleases him.

Psalm 115:3 : Our God is in heaven; he does whatever pleases him.

Psalm 135:6 : The LORD does whatever pleases him, in the heavens and on the earth, in the seas and all their depths.

Daniel 4:35 : All the peoples of the earth are regarded as nothing.
He does as he pleases
with the powers of heaven
and the peoples of the earth.
No one can hold back his hand
or say to him: 'What have you dones?"

 

[Rippon]

You would say this to a fellow believer in Christ? God help you! :tear:

Indeed I would. It is heretical and blasphemous for a professing Christian to maintain the the will of man trumps the will of God.May God help those who teach this anti-scriptural stuff. They need to renounce this false doctrine, repent and use the Word of God honorably from now on.

 

[Tom Butler]

Let's chew on the following verse:
II Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and hath committed to us the word of reconciliation."

We have two ways to look at this verse. First, that God has reconciled every person without exception to himself, and that they are no longer subject to the penalty of their sins; that is, all are saved or will be saved.

Or two, world means something different.

 

[MB]

Let's chew on the following verse:
II Corinthians 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and hath committed to us the word of reconciliation."

We have two ways to look at this verse. First, that God has reconciled every person without exception to himself, and that they are no longer subject to the penalty of their sins; that is, all are saved or will be saved.

Or two, world means something different.

Thats right the whole world can be saved if they will only be reconciled to God.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
MB

 

[webdog]

O, so you want to join MFH's heterodox group? You want to champion the completely unorthodox position that the will of man overrides God's will? You're going to have to remove a lot of passages from the Bible to maintain your stance. Your Bible will look like Thomas Jefferson's in the process. You better rethink your view. Ask the Lord's pardon while you're at it.

You want to just answer the question for a change instead of spew vitriol?

 

[webdog]

We went over this just a week ago.

If God allows sin, it is within His will yet is not the cause of sin.

And like a week ago, still doesn't answer the question. If we can't go against God's will, and we sin which is against God's will, we have violated a command which is God's will.

 

[Jarthur001]

And like a week ago, still doesn't answer the question. If we can't go against God's will, and we sin which is against God's will, we have violated a command which is God's will.

There are a few things to note before I begin.

1st...It is not surprising that we see free-willers take the unorthodox position that man has more will power than God.
After all...this is what they base their theology on.

2nd..It is surprising that they admit it. Most of the time they will never go that far.

3rd...It is surprising that the BB allows this to go on. I have seen others kicked for less than this view. This is clearly unorthodox.

Lets start with what is a will. Most philosophers and theologians ascribe 3 aspects to that which makes up the will.

1) Self-determination which comes from the wisdom that one holds.
2) His power
3) His love and other moral attributes

(1) >>>>>>We can say that both man and God has Self-Determination.

Before we get to 3 (which we will find key to this debate)...I want to ask your feeling on 2.

a) Does man have the power in bring about his will in all things?

b) Does God have the power to bring about His will in all things?

Please don't dodge.

 

[Jarthur001]

Thats right the whole world can be saved if they will only be reconciled to God.

2Co 5:20 Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God.
MB

What was asked was this....

Is the WHOLE WORLD reconciled?

 

[Rippon]

You want to just answer the question for a change instead of spew{sic} vitriol?

Do you want to remain in the camp of the unorthodox with your sin of believing that the will of man trumps the will of God? That singular doctrine of yours would be rejected by most Protestant churches of even the Arminian persuasion.

Have you shared this teaching of yours with your pastor -- or kept mum about it? If you haven't told him I find it strange that you would want thousands of other folks around the world to learn first-hand of your defection from historic, biblical Christianity in this respect.

 

[Me4Him]

God's will is not contingent on what the response of man may be.

2Pe 3:9 The Lord is .....not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

If these that perish do so as the results of "God's will",

then 2Pe 3:9 is a "lie".

Heb 6:18 it was impossible for God to lie,

This "might be" business is hypothetical universalism which the Scriptures do not teach.Also, you depend too much on KJV terminology which clouds your mind when trying to reason things out.You are a 21st century guy who occasionally uses basically 16th century words which are not as accurate as the wording in more modern versions.

"LAW", the "principles" of how Law functions does change, any violation of those "principles" is also a violation of the law.

Why do you suppose God gave man the "LAW", and do you suppose God will violate his own law???

Like a lot of other people, you don't understand law, Jesus didn't die to take away sin, he died to take away the law that required a "DEATH FOR SIN",

With that law "fulfilled", it was "possible" that people "MIGHT BE" saved from having to die, as the law required, for their sins.

Jesus only nailed the law to the cross, not sins, that's why the law can be taken away for the "Whole world", but sin/death still exist.

The "Day of Atonement" a "ScapeGoat" (Jesus) and a "Goat for the people" (our bodies of sin) had to be sacrificed "BEFORE" atonement was complete.

Ro 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed,

We have to offer our bodies a "LIVING SACRIFICE", before we will be saved, no sacrifice. no shed blood, (life of the flesh) no remission of our sins.

Ro 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice,

Le 17:11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to "YOU" upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

life of the flesh is blood, I have given it to "YOU" to make an atonement for your souls: (it is) blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

Heb 9:22 and without shedding of blood is no remission. (of sin)

Flesh and "BLOOD" can't inherit heaven but "FLESH" (Glorified body) and "SPIRIT" can, just as Jesus showed.

God "predestine" that we would have to "drink of Jesus cup", that is "Conform to his image", in sacrificing the flesh if we are to be saved.

I'm surprised at how few people really understand the plan of salvation they expect to save them, especially with the possibility of catching "HELL" if they get it wrong.

The Lord did not will that each and every person -- past,present and future be saved. As a matter of biblical fact there are a number who are ordained for everlasting destruction.

God/Jesus are not at odds with each other over how many they want to save, Jesus is God.

If you think a passage like 2 Peter 3:9 will come to your rescue -- think again.Deal with the intended audience which Peter was addressing and also the nonsensical stance of God willing every single person -- head-for-head to be saved.If something is His will -- it will be done -- period.

If it's God will, then it will be done,

so if man's will trumps God will, then obviously, God's will is not involved/enforced,

 

[Me4Him]

1st...It is not surprising that we see free-willers take the unorthodox position that man has more will power than God.
After all...this is what they base their theology on.

NO, we're not saying that at all,

we're saying God's will is not involved in "OUR" decision to "believe" or not believe".

God calls, but the "CHOICE" is ours to make, not God's.

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve;

Ro 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

 

[Benjamin]

Originally Posted by webdog
And like a week ago, still doesn't answer the question. If we can't go against God's will, and we sin which is against God's will, we have violated a command which is God's will.

There are a few things to note before I begin.

1st...It is not surprising that we see free-willers take the unorthodox position that man has more will power than God.
After all...this is what they base their theology on.

STRAWMAN

2nd..It is surprising that they admit it. Most of the time they will never go that far.

STRAWMAN

3rd...It is surprising that the BB allows this to go on. I have seen others kicked for less than this view. This is clearly unorthodox.

"ARGUMENT FROM OUTRAGE" linked and based on the STRAWMAN

Lets start with what is a will.

Your beginning and starting... :laugh: ...And then Rippon (to no surprise) jumps into the fallacy wagon... Rhetoric Rippon..Rhetoric!!! :laugh: