Since man is in such a deprived state and sin was passed down thru Adam to us. Thru our sinful nature,how are we able to make the decision to be saved without GOD helping us ? Are we that able to have something to do with our salvation ? Wouldn't that mean salvation isn't just up to GOD and that is our work and HIS GRACE combined ?
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Predestination
- Thread starter ryarn
- Start date
Whoa cowboy....what happened to sola gratia?
I think that is what he is arguing for. Maybe I missed it.
I think he is trying to point out the error of synergism in salvation- this idea that we are helping God save us or that we are contributing to our salvation.
Lord.....I sincerely hope so. :love2:
Tom Butler
New Member
I think it's before that. Some of us believe that the work of the Holy Spirit on a spiritually-enslaved sinner includes not only illumination and conviction, but also changes us so that we freely desire to follow Christ. The Holy Spirit changes our "want-to."
This is where DoGs and non-DoGs differ. DoGs believe regeneration precedes illumination, conviction, drawing, which enables one to repent and trust Christ for salvation.
Non-Dogs believe that everyone is given the ability to exercise our will to repent and trust. They also believe in illumination, conviction and drawing; but see regeneration and salvation as synonyous, given in response to repentance and faith.
Welcome to the BB,
We can learn what God has revealed about all these teachings,that is why they are given in scripture: you might enjoy this-
http://www.vor.org/truth/1689/1689bc00.html
We are free to serve but not free to sin.
16 As free, and not using your liberty for a cloke of maliciousness, but as the servants of God.
9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Regeneration before words of life is ridiculous that is why Jesus sent the elect with Holy Spirit filled people like the disciples no one would hear the words of life to have life. Free will is ridiculous even for a believer. We are either following God will through the words of life or following our own will that leads to death.
Jesus said not my will but your will be done His Fathers will. His will not our will through the word of God is for us to repent and live and listen and learn from Jesus. We to must say not my will be done but yours be done. Our will is not to repent and live that is Gods will.
We are saved by grace because the wages of our sin is death. You will have to pay your own debt to not be saved by grace, but that is not salvation but eternal death. I will say for my self I will trust in the work of Jesus and rest in Him.
The new creation in Christ the born again by the word of God has been predestined for salvation not the old creation it is fit for destruction.
Lord save me or I will perish
Jesus said not my will but your will be done His Fathers will. His will not our will through the word of God is for us to repent and live and listen and learn from Jesus. We to must say not my will be done but yours be done. Our will is not to repent and live that is Gods will.
We are saved by grace because the wages of our sin is death. You will have to pay your own debt to not be saved by grace, but that is not salvation but eternal death. I will say for my self I will trust in the work of Jesus and rest in Him.
The new creation in Christ the born again by the word of God has been predestined for salvation not the old creation it is fit for destruction.
Lord save me or I will perish
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psalms109:31
Active Member
People really should read spurgeon on free will and regeneration before faith being ridiculous a more DoG person who was educated by books who could teach a thing or to those who reconcile scripture to their own understanding.
It is amazing to me how people believe they were chosen before the foundation of the world as the old creation not the new creation.
Paul was talking to believers born again Christian as being predestined not any old creation unbelievers.
As an old creation I was headed for destruction in Christ I am headed for life because of Him. My old creation was never chosen before the foundation of the world my new creation in Christ is.
It is amazing to me how people believe they were chosen before the foundation of the world as the old creation not the new creation.
Paul was talking to believers born again Christian as being predestined not any old creation unbelievers.
As an old creation I was headed for destruction in Christ I am headed for life because of Him. My old creation was never chosen before the foundation of the world my new creation in Christ is.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Unbeliever old creation= not predestined before the foundation of the world
New creation in Christ = predestined before the foundation of the world
John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Blood is to intake the life He lived the flesh is the words He spoke
Romans 10:17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.
New creation in Christ = predestined before the foundation of the world
John 6:53
Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.
Blood is to intake the life He lived the flesh is the words He spoke
Romans 10:17
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.
psalms109:31
Active Member
1John 2:
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
“If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners.”
- C.H. Spurgeon
We surround our self with teachers that tell us what we want to hear until they don't then we no longer try to learn
If they don't tell us what we want to hear then they must be wrong and reconcile it into our own understanding so we can put sugar on it and make it sweeter so we can take it.
19 They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.
20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth. 21 I do not write to you because you do not know the truth, but because you do know it and because no lie comes from the truth. 22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son. 23 No one who denies the Son has the Father; whoever acknowledges the Son has the Father also.
24 As for you, see that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is what he promised us—eternal life.
26 I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray. 27 As for you, the anointing you received from him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But as his anointing teaches you about all things and as that anointing is real, not counterfeit—just as it has taught you, remain in him.
“If I am to preach faith in Christ to a man who is regenerated, then the man, being regenerated, is saved already, and it is an unnecessary and ridiculous thing for me to preach Christ to him, and bid him to believe in order to be saved when he is saved already, being regenerate. But you will tell me that I ought to preach it only to those who repent of their sins. Very well; but since true repentance of sin is the work of the Spirit, any man who has repentance is most certainly saved, because evangelical repentance never can exist in an unrenewed soul. Where there is repentance there is faith already, for they never can be separated. So, then, I am only to preach faith to those who have it. Absurd, indeed! Is not this waiting till the man is cured and then bringing him the medicine? This is preaching Christ to the righteous and not to sinners.”
- C.H. Spurgeon
We surround our self with teachers that tell us what we want to hear until they don't then we no longer try to learn
If they don't tell us what we want to hear then they must be wrong and reconcile it into our own understanding so we can put sugar on it and make it sweeter so we can take it.
psalms109:31
Active Member
1 Corinthian 3
6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service_; you are God’s field, God’s building.
2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christian in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Roman 10
The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
Deuteronomy 30
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live
James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
6 I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. 7 So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. 8 The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor. 9 For we are co-workers in God’s service_; you are God’s field, God’s building.
2 Corinthians 5:
16 So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christian in this way, we do so no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come: The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Roman 10
The word is near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart,”that is, the message concerning faith that we proclaim: 9 If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved. 11 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.”12 For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13 for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: “How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!”
Deuteronomy 30
11 Now what I am commanding you today is not too difficult for you or beyond your reach. 12 It is not up in heaven, so that you have to ask, “Who will ascend into heaven to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 13 Nor is it beyond the sea, so that you have to ask, “Who will cross the sea to get it and proclaim it to us so we may obey it?” 14 No, the word is very near you; it is in your mouth and in your heart so you may obey it.
15 See, I set before you today life and prosperity, death and destruction. 16 For I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in obedience to him, and to keep his commands, decrees and laws; then you will live and increase, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land you are entering to possess.
17 But if your heart turns away and you are not obedient, and if you are drawn away to bow down to other gods and worship them, 18 I declare to you this day that you will certainly be destroyed. You will not live long in the land you are crossing the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live 20 and that you may love the Lord your God, listen to his voice, and hold fast to him. For the Lord is your life, and he will give you many years in the land he swore to give to your fathers, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.
Ezekiel 18:32
For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live
James 5:20
remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of their way will save them from death and cover over a multitude of sins.