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Predestination
- Thread starter ryarn
- Start date
psalms109:31
Active Member
1 Peter 1:23
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
Matthew 11:25
[ The Father Revealed in the Son ] At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
We can't live on little pieces of bread but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.
Jesus did not disagree with the word of God with satan, Jesus had every word to live by not just by the word satan wanted to feed Him.
If you are not listening and learning from the word of God through Jesus Christ and living by little pieces of bread men feed you the Holy Spirit isn't working in you.
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.
Matthew 11:25
[ The Father Revealed in the Son ] At that time Jesus said, “I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
We can't live on little pieces of bread but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.
Jesus did not disagree with the word of God with satan, Jesus had every word to live by not just by the word satan wanted to feed Him.
If you are not listening and learning from the word of God through Jesus Christ and living by little pieces of bread men feed you the Holy Spirit isn't working in you.
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psalms109:31
Active Member
Romans 10:
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
Faith is a noun that comes from the word from Jesus and the words about Jesus it comes from God. It teaches us about the work of God.
Trust in that work is a verb an action from us and faith without deeds is dead. If faith does not cause action then you are still dead as a door nail as they say.
God does not have to trust in His own work we do. We do not work, but trust in God in His finished work, but still trust is a verb and action from us.
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [Or concerning Christ]of Christ.
Psalm 73:28
But it is good for me to draw near to God; I have put my trust in the Lord GOD, That I may declare all Your works.
Romans 4
Abraham Justified by Faith
4 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather according to the flesh, discovered in this matter? 2 If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3 What does Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
4 Now to the one who works, wages are not credited as a gift but as an obligation. 5 However, to the one who does not work but trusts God who justifies the ungodly, their faith is credited as righteousness. 6 David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the one to whom God credits righteousness apart from works
Faith is a noun that comes from the word from Jesus and the words about Jesus it comes from God. It teaches us about the work of God.
Trust in that work is a verb an action from us and faith without deeds is dead. If faith does not cause action then you are still dead as a door nail as they say.
God does not have to trust in His own work we do. We do not work, but trust in God in His finished work, but still trust is a verb and action from us.
Good Question
I have not read any of the posts in this thread because the Calvinism answers are both well known and false.
The correct and less known answers are found in scripture. There is no need to speculate.
Scripture says no one seeks God. Calvinism rewrites it to read no one seeks God at any time. Thus the scope of the statement is both assumed and taken to the maximum extent.
However, if we ask what is the least that might be meant, we get no one seeks God when they are sinning and everyone sins.
Scripture says by the sin of the one, the many were made sinners. Thus we are in a sinful state, i.e. separated from God and therefore spiritually dead, at conception. And because our eyes have been opened, in the same way Adam and Eve's eyes were opened, we are predisposed to sin. We have a wicked heart. But does this mean we never seek God nor trust in His promises? Nope
Notice right after God tells us of our wicked heart, He tells us Noah, wicked heart and all, found favor in His eyes. So the premise that the Fall caused total spiritual inability is false. Limited spiritual ability, that can be taken away is the actual condition brought about by the Fall. In Matthew 13 we learn of four types of individuals, some have total spiritual inability, the first soil, but the other three have some spiritual ability. In Matthew 23, we have unregenerate, fallen man of flesh "entering heaven." Thus yet another verse teaching fallen mean have limited spiritual ability, they are able to seek God. But they are not being compelled by irresistible grace because they are blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
Next, because some of us are able and sometimes do seek God, does that work result in meriting or earning our salvation? Nope. Romans 9:16 says it does not depend upon the man that wants salvation or tries to earn salvation, i.e. a man that runs, but rather salvation depends upon God alone who has mercy upon whom He has mercy. BTW, this is yet another verse that teaches fallen men can will to be saved and try to earn salvation, thus once again demonstrating your premise is false.
Romans 4:4-5 provides the answer to your question. Only if God credits a person's faith as righteousness, will a person be saved. So our faith is not righteous, it is yet another worthless filthy rag, but if God credits it as righteousness, then it is through that faith we receive the grace of salvation, for we are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is all of God and our salvation does not depend on our faith, but in God's sovereign action to credit it, or not, as righteousness.
I have not read any of the posts in this thread because the Calvinism answers are both well known and false.
The correct and less known answers are found in scripture. There is no need to speculate.
Scripture says no one seeks God. Calvinism rewrites it to read no one seeks God at any time. Thus the scope of the statement is both assumed and taken to the maximum extent.
However, if we ask what is the least that might be meant, we get no one seeks God when they are sinning and everyone sins.
Scripture says by the sin of the one, the many were made sinners. Thus we are in a sinful state, i.e. separated from God and therefore spiritually dead, at conception. And because our eyes have been opened, in the same way Adam and Eve's eyes were opened, we are predisposed to sin. We have a wicked heart. But does this mean we never seek God nor trust in His promises? Nope
Notice right after God tells us of our wicked heart, He tells us Noah, wicked heart and all, found favor in His eyes. So the premise that the Fall caused total spiritual inability is false. Limited spiritual ability, that can be taken away is the actual condition brought about by the Fall. In Matthew 13 we learn of four types of individuals, some have total spiritual inability, the first soil, but the other three have some spiritual ability. In Matthew 23, we have unregenerate, fallen man of flesh "entering heaven." Thus yet another verse teaching fallen mean have limited spiritual ability, they are able to seek God. But they are not being compelled by irresistible grace because they are blocked by false teachers teaching false doctrine.
Next, because some of us are able and sometimes do seek God, does that work result in meriting or earning our salvation? Nope. Romans 9:16 says it does not depend upon the man that wants salvation or tries to earn salvation, i.e. a man that runs, but rather salvation depends upon God alone who has mercy upon whom He has mercy. BTW, this is yet another verse that teaches fallen men can will to be saved and try to earn salvation, thus once again demonstrating your premise is false.
Romans 4:4-5 provides the answer to your question. Only if God credits a person's faith as righteousness, will a person be saved. So our faith is not righteous, it is yet another worthless filthy rag, but if God credits it as righteousness, then it is through that faith we receive the grace of salvation, for we are saved by grace through faith. Salvation is all of God and our salvation does not depend on our faith, but in God's sovereign action to credit it, or not, as righteousness.
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We are all born in imputed original Sin states, none of us can come to Jesus unless the father draws us, thru the person of the Holy Spriit!
So we are born in a state spiritually dead, apart from God, so unless the lord intervened to save us, NONE would get saved!
So we are born in a state spiritually dead, apart from God, so unless the lord intervened to save us, NONE would get saved!
psalms109:31
Active Member
Wages of sin is death to everyone, not one does not have this effect. Jesus word is our faith, it is Spirit and life, it is the words from the Father. All authority has been given to Jesus. The only one's who will come is those who listen and learn. Those are not mantra's from men they keep repeating out of their own reasoning it comes from the word of Jesus.
If you are not born again by these words, you remain dead and you are dead. The Holy Spirit works through the words of Jesus to change us not the words of man and their mantra's. There is right in the scripture of who is drawn by the Father and you don't have to go to mystery so you can plug in who you want to be His elect.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
The born again in Christ by His word is the one who has been predestined from the foundation of the word not the old creation the old man is made for destruction. There is no hope in this flesh only in Christ.
If you are not born again by these words, you remain dead and you are dead. The Holy Spirit works through the words of Jesus to change us not the words of man and their mantra's. There is right in the scripture of who is drawn by the Father and you don't have to go to mystery so you can plug in who you want to be His elect.
John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: ‘They will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from him comes to me.
John 10:30
I and the Father are one.”
Matthew 11:29
Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
The born again in Christ by His word is the one who has been predestined from the foundation of the word not the old creation the old man is made for destruction. There is no hope in this flesh only in Christ.
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HisWitness
New Member
even Calvinists don't take the Grace of God as far as God takes it himself.
they say just a few out of the masses of mankind will ever be saved(Elected)
But God takes it much further than even they do.
Heres where I differ--I do believe in election and choosing of God
I believe God to elect some in this generation--some in next--and continue on as such--and at the closing of all things I believe God is too bring in the rest of mankind by Fire--it has always been the purpose of God to Redeem back THAT which was lost through adam(all mankind)but he didn't say he would bring them in all at same time--Chrsit said if he be lifted up he would draw ALL men unto himself--God will have ALL men to be saved--why do you think God would settle for anything else--mankind was lost in adam--regained back through the blood of Christ--I know some make Christ's atonement weak and of little use---and make adams transgression of much more power than Christ's offering--but that will be dealt with before the Allmighty:godisgood::godisgood::godisgood:
they say just a few out of the masses of mankind will ever be saved(Elected)
But God takes it much further than even they do.
Heres where I differ--I do believe in election and choosing of God
I believe God to elect some in this generation--some in next--and continue on as such--and at the closing of all things I believe God is too bring in the rest of mankind by Fire--it has always been the purpose of God to Redeem back THAT which was lost through adam(all mankind)but he didn't say he would bring them in all at same time--Chrsit said if he be lifted up he would draw ALL men unto himself--God will have ALL men to be saved--why do you think God would settle for anything else--mankind was lost in adam--regained back through the blood of Christ--I know some make Christ's atonement weak and of little use---and make adams transgression of much more power than Christ's offering--but that will be dealt with before the Allmighty:godisgood::godisgood::godisgood:
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Here: "Works" are explained as being of the "flesh" but "Faith" of the Spirit:
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This same book renders a it impossible to confuse them as being the same type of thing in that one is of the flesh and the other is of the Spirit see chapter 5:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The "law" is works... faith however is of the Spirit.
Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?
This same book renders a it impossible to confuse them as being the same type of thing in that one is of the flesh and the other is of the Spirit see chapter 5:
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
The "law" is works... faith however is of the Spirit.
convicted1
Guest
Predestination and election both center on Christ and not man....Isaiah 42 and John 15 sum them up.
Van said:
No, Calvinism rewrites this scripture to read no one is ABLE to seek God at any time. Completely unwarranted.
If I were to say that none of my neighbors ever goes to church, no, not one, would anyone understand me to be saying they are UNABLE to go to church? NO! No one would ever get that impression from such a statement.
But that is exactly what Calvinism does, it takes a general statement about men (because there are MANY accounts of men seeking God in scripture) and reads INABILITY into it when it is not there.
Fact is, you can find many accounts of men seeking God in scripture.
2 Chr 15:12 And they entered into a covenant to seek the LORD God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul;
2 Chr 19:3 Nevertheless there are good things found in thee, in that thou hast taken away the groves out of the land, and hast prepared thine heart to seek God.
The scriptures say "good" was found in Jehoshaphat and that he prepared his heart to seek God.
So, the scriptures that say no man seeks God is a general statement and does not prove men are UNABLE to seek God whatsoever.
psalms109:31
Active Member
No one seeks the one true God. Paul said that for us to seek them, blessed are the feet that brings the good news. It speaks of their inability without His word of life that we are messengers of. If you look at Paul's ministry you will understand Paul's word more clearly. He spent his life seeking others to his ends of the earth that he knew of.
We know no one is righteous, praise God because Jesus came to save sinners that we are messengers to them.
2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
We know no one is righteous, praise God because Jesus came to save sinners that we are messengers to them.
2 Corinthians 5:16
So from now on we regard no one from a worldly point of view. Though we once regarded Christ in this way, we do so no longer.17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, the new creation has come:[Or Christ, that person is a new creation.] The old has gone, the new is here! 18 All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20 We are therefore Christ’s ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ’s behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21 God made him who had no sin to be sin[Or be a sin offering] for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
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Men DO seek the true God, I just submitted scripture that tells us directly of men seeking the true God.
Now, you are correct, man LEFT TO HIMSELF will never seek God. Man in his natural mind could never conceive of the true God or salvation through his Son Jesus Christ.
Nevertheless, men have the ability to hear God's word and learn from it if they will listen. This is how men become ABLE to seek God. From Jesus's own words;
Jhn 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.
Many love to quote John 6:44 that says no man can come to God unless God the Father has drawn him, but these same people will omit verse 45 which tells us the METHOD God uses to draw men.
Does it say God must regenerate a man before he can believe and come to Jesus? NO. It says those men who have HEARD and LEARNED from the Father shall come to Jesus.
And this is the exact same thing Paul taught in Romans chapter 10;
Rom 10:14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
No other verse in all of scripture directly addresses HOW a man can believe in Jesus as does Romans 10:14. Does Paul ask how a man can believe in Jesus unless he is regenerated? NO, he does not say one word about that.
No, Paul simply asks how a man can believe in Jesus unless he has HEARD of him. And then Paul asks how a man can hear unless a preacher goes out and preaches the word of God.
This is how men are enabled to believe in Jesus, by listening to and taking heed to the word of God. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God, not some supernatural regeneration. Such a thing is NEVER taught in scripture, it is an invention of man.
Once men hear the word of God they are ABLE to seek God if they choose to do so. This is what scripture REALLY teaches.
psalms109:31
Active Member
Why do you argue when there is no argument?
No one wakes up one day and say i am going to seek the one true God without God first initiated by something they witness from Him or someone witnessing to them of the one true God.