Predestination

[psalms109:31]

I could ask the same of you, I had just submitted scripture that directly tells us of men who were seeking God, then you say:



Who was the one arguing, me or you??

You are kidding me right, part of what i say isn't a good argument.

No one wakes up one day and say i am going to seek the one true God without God first initiated by something they witness from Him or someone witnessing to them of the one true God.

 

[Winman]

You are kidding me right, part of what i say isn't a good argument.

No one wakes up one day and say i am going to seek the one true God without God first initiated by something they witness from Him or someone witnessing to them of the one true God.

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. Nevertheless, you have to be very careful how you say things, this is how error creeps in. In fact, Total Depravity is built on isolating part of a verse and not comparing it to all scripture. Does Paul say no one seeks God in Romans 3? Yes, but Paul was quoting the Psalm 14;

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

King David was not teaching that all men are "fools" in Psalm 14, he compares these persons to "my people", "the righteous", "the poor, because the LORD is his refuge", and "his people".

But folks will isolate this single phrase in Romans and build an entire doctrine (Total Depravity) out of it.

 

[Iconoclast]

I have posted Scripture (twice) which demonstrates that Faith is absolutely not a work. http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=1961326&postcount=40 You have not addressed it. And you are not posting any Scripture now. This is mantra, not Scripture.
Gal 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Gal 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, [doeth he it] by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

These are good verses dealing with one main issue....the works oriented false gospel of the Judaizers....

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ..


Grace as a saving principle is in view rather than a works based religion.

The verses you list are showing the contrast ...not highlighting the one aspect of "faith"......which we agreed was the instrumentality to link these other things I posted about. You know the difference.:thumbsup:

If you want verses...start with EZK 34...where God says 16 times what Jesus will do in saving the elect sheep....or,
7 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles

granted

repentance unto life.

or
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

 

[Iconoclast]

HisWitness

even Calvinists don't take the Grace of God as far as God takes it himself.
they say just a few out of the masses of mankind will ever be saved(Elected)
But God takes it much further than even they do.

Biblical Calvinists teach a multitude will be saved...where do you get this idea..it is only a few?

Heres where I differ--I do believe in election and choosing of God
I believe God to elect some in this generation--some in next--and continue on as such

-

Can you name someone else who believes the same as you on this?

-and at the closing of all things I believe God is too bring in the rest of mankind by Fire

This is completely unbiblical and a direct contradiction to many passages of scripture such as Jesus here:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

--it has always been the purpose of God to Redeem back THAT which was lost through adam(all mankind)but he didn't say he would bring them in all at same time--Chrsit said if he be lifted up he would draw ALL men unto himself--God will have ALL men to be saved

You have missed the meaning of all these verses.

--why do you think God would settle for anything else-[/B

]

God does not settle...He accomplishes His will completely saving the Covenanted people who are given to the Son.

mankind was lost in adam--regained back through the blood of Christ-

The scripture does not say he took on Him the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of Abraham....those IN Christ..
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

-I know some make Christ's atonement weak and of little use---and make adams transgression of much more power than Christ's offering--but that will be dealt with before the Allmighty

God has made a perfect atonement for all it was intended for.

 

[psalms109:31]

I understand what you are saying, and I agree with you. Nevertheless, you have to be very careful how you say things, this is how error creeps in. In fact, Total Depravity is built on isolating part of a verse and not comparing it to all scripture. Does Paul say no one seeks God in Romans 3? Yes, but Paul was quoting the Psalm 14;

Psa 14:1 To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David. The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.
2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the LORD.
5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.
6 Ye have shamed the counsel of the poor, because the LORD is his refuge.
7 Oh that the salvation of Israel were come out of Zion! when the LORD bringeth back the captivity of his people, Jacob shall rejoice, and Israel shall be glad.

King David was not teaching that all men are "fools" in Psalm 14, he compares these persons to "my people", "the righteous", "the poor, because the LORD is his refuge", and "his people".

But folks will isolate this single phrase in Romans and build an entire doctrine (Total Depravity) out of it.

People do not want to use scripture as it is intended for. Paul is using it to tell us believers none is righteous none seek God, but we all know Jesus came to save sinners and it is a call to send us out that they don't seek God so we are sent out to seek them. Paul is reaching people to continue to do what he has been doing to reach the Gospel to everyone, not that they can't come if they listen and learn from the message of Christ and the message about Him. People like the Jews who can't believe they are wrong for over 7,000 years or ever how long they believe it, will always be blinded from the truth.

 

[HisWitness]

HisWitness



Biblical Calvinists teach a multitude will be saved...where do you get this idea..it is only a few?



-

Can you name someone else who believes the same as you on this?



This is completely unbiblical and a direct contradiction to many passages of scripture such as Jesus here:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



You have missed the meaning of all these verses.


]

God does not settle...He accomplishes His will completely saving the Covenanted people who are given to the Son.



The scripture does not say he took on Him the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of Abraham....those IN Christ..
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.




God has made a perfect atonement for all it was intended for.

as iv said--it doesn't do me any good to keep on--you will not believe because you are chained with that tradition and can go no further till God removes those chains.why stop at where you are friend--go all the way to the Glorius complete truth of the matter :godisgood::godisgood::godisgood:

 

[HisWitness]

HisWitness



Biblical Calvinists teach a multitude will be saved...where do you get this idea..it is only a few?



-

Can you name someone else who believes the same as you on this?



This is completely unbiblical and a direct contradiction to many passages of scripture such as Jesus here:
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.



You have missed the meaning of all these verses.


]

God does not settle...He accomplishes His will completely saving the Covenanted people who are given to the Son.



The scripture does not say he took on Him the seed of Adam, but rather the seed of Abraham....those IN Christ..
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.




God has made a perfect atonement for all it was intended for.

also no one has commented on the thread I made about Fire. the Fire in 1sr Corinthians and lake of Fire in revelation has the same greek word behind both.so you tell me the outcome and result of both Fires :godisgood::godisgood:

Basically you have said the same thing as I have stated--the only difference between us is everything you say is referring to just some and by the same things you say I refer to them as ALL :thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

These are good verses dealing with one main issue....the works oriented false gospel of the Judaizers....

I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:

7 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ..


Grace as a saving principle is in view rather than a works based religion.

The verses you list are showing the contrast ...not highlighting the one aspect of "faith"......which we agreed was the instrumentality to link these other things I posted about. You know the difference.:thumbsup:

If you want verses...start with EZK 34...where God says 16 times what Jesus will do in saving the elect sheep....or,
7 Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?

18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles repentance unto life.

or
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Hi Icon:
You have not responded to the passages in Romans which clearly pose faith as being completely distinct from works.

Whether the context is "Judaizers" or not is irrelevant, the point remains that faith is not a work.
The 34th chapter of Ezekiel is irrelevant.
While we are at it, I will pose more Scriptures which demonstrate un-questionably to anyone who reads them honestly and without pre-supposition that faith cannot possibly be a work:

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Now, this doesn't prove my point yet, only tells us that one will never have one without the other, thus, they are always concurrent, but let's read on:
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with <--- two distinct things, "faith" and "work" you cannot use the word "with" about the same category...they are in different categories his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. <--- If faith is a "work" than it is nonsense to say not by "faith" ONLY.Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. <----A body and a Spirit are two distinct things: in the same way "faith" and "works" are distinct as well. They are always concurrent, and they rely upon one another, but they are NOT in the same category.

Romans proves this point, Galatians proves it, so does James.
You will post NO SCRIPTURE which suggests that faith is properly defined as a "work", because it isn't one.

Don't worry ICON, you can comfortably remain a 5-point, (criminy, be a 12-point Calvinist if you want.) You don't have to believe that faith is a work in order to do so!! Once you realize that you may comfortably remain a Calvie without believing that pablum, you won't burden yourself with believing something so blatantly and clearly un-Scriptural.

On a side note: If you want to show that the Scriptures classify faith as a "work", then you might start with verses which actually use the two words in the same sentence, or at least statement (as ALL of mine do). You talked about Ezekiel (and prattled about sheep being elected) but you will find no definition of "faith" in the chapter, in the entire book actually. You will certainly not see it compared to works.

 

[Iconoclast]

as iv said--it doesn't do me any good to keep on--you will not believe because you are chained with that tradition and can go no further till God removes those chains.why stop at where you are friend--go all the way to the Glorius complete truth of the matter

I stop or go where scripture stops or goes.The is a biblical hell with many who will be there. God will save all he can most wisely save...no more, no less...:thumbs:

 

[HisWitness]

I stop or go where scripture stops or goes.The is a biblical hell with many who will be there. God will save all he can most wisely save...no more, no less...:thumbs:

so your saying the Fire in both 1st Corinthians and Revelation is the same Fire that has the same result ?

 

[Iconoclast]

HeirofSalvation

Hello Hos- I had to stop and take a lunch break here in Boise...before you hurt yourself trying to pat yourself on the back:smilewinkgrin: i have not responded clearly enough in offering an explanation...have had to drive at night and sleep during the day...so my posts have lacked a bit:thumbs:

You have not responded to the passages in Romans which clearly pose faith as being completely distinct from works.

I offered a partial answer earlier that you have not understood as I intended.
I had said this;
Faith is just an instrumentality.

Grace and works are contrasted.....not faith and works

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.


Anything a person...DOES.....is a work.
28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

You offered a good response in Post 40, correctly going to romans 4...which is a great passage.....so why do we not come to agreement?

i am understanding .....Faith....as used in Romans 4, Gal 3, and James, as being used......SYNECDOTALLY.......
Synecdoche (pron.: /sɪˈnɛkdəkiː/, si-NEK-də-kee; from Greek synekdoche (συνεκδοχή), meaning "simultaneous understanding") is a figure of speech[1] in which a term for a part of something is used to refer to the whole of something, or vice-versa.

So when I offered this to you in post #45

Everything assosiated with faith ...is a work, repenting, coming, believing, trusting, praying.....we do these things, they are works.....

saving faith is God given, not inherent in the sinner...

Faith...is always by, or through faith....NEVER..."because of" ...not once.

If we do not agree here, we cannot come to an agreement.

Faith has to do with the whole gospel message.As it lays hold of all the elements of it. We are never said to be saved...because of faith..always by, or through faith. You are attempting to make faith stand by itself ,apart from all the elements of it. The verses you offered in James actually work against your POV.

Whether the context is "Judaizers" or not is irrelevant, the point remains that faith is not a work.

If you correctly understand how Paul is using "faith" as a part for the whole you will see what i was offering to you.

The 34th chapter of Ezekiel is irrelevant.

Not at all. It demonstrates that man is totally dependent on God for Divine enablement, so all the cases you offer, were the RESULT of God's working in those persons....not the cause;
6 My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and upon every high hill: yea, my flock was scattered upon all the face of the earth, and none did search or seek after them.

Election, and the covenant of redemption here-
for I will deliver my flock
1 For thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I, even I, will both search my sheep, and seek them out.

12 As a shepherd seeketh out his flock in the day that he is among his sheep that are scattered;
I will bring them out from the people
I will feed them in a good pasture,
I will feed my flock, etc...the whole chapter shows it is all the work of God

While we are at it, I will pose more Scriptures which demonstrate un-questionably to anyone who reads them honestly and without pre-supposition that faith cannot possibly be a work:

Jam 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Correct.....faith does not and indeed cannot stand alone....that James describes as ...dead faith....not works, no fruit..

Abraham,and Rahab.....were not saved by works.They were saved by a God given faith,enabling them to believe God's word. the scripture speaks of their works demonstrating that what they did....By Faith.....were the result of saving faith.


Jam 2:18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
Now, this doesn't prove my point yet, only tells us that one will never have one without the other, thus, they are always concurrent, but let's read on:
Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
Jam 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
Jam 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with <--- two distinct things, "faith" and "work" you cannot use the word "with" about the same category...they are in different categories his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
Jam 2:23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
Jam 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. <--- If faith is a "work" than it is nonsense to say not by "faith" ONLY.Jam 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent [them] out another way?
Jam 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also. <----A body and a Spirit are two distinct things: in the same way "faith" and "works" are distinct as well. They are always concurrent, and they rely upon one another, but they are NOT in the same category.

Romans proves this point, Galatians proves it, so does James.
You will post NO SCRIPTURE which suggests that faith is properly defined as a "work", because it isn't one.

Now you can see why that is not done ,because faith is never used independant of belief and action[works]. All of hebrews11 demonstrates acts of faith that were wrought in God.

D

on't worry ICON, you can comfortably remain a 5-point, (criminy, be a 12-point Calvinist if you want.) You don't have to believe that faith is a work in order to do so!!

This is correct,except I am not worried as there is not an Arminian verse in the bible:smilewinkgrin:

Once you realize that you may comfortably remain a Calvie without believing that pablum, you won't burden yourself with believing something so blatantly and clearly un-Scriptural.

Or perhaps you will see things differently at a future point in time.

On a side note: If you want to show that the Scriptures classify faith as a "work", then you might start with verses which actually use the two words in the same sentence, or at least statement (as ALL of mine do

).
or ...perhaps you can show where i said faith by itself is a work??? can you show where I posted this statement....with those two words used with faith being disconnected from the gospel as a whole:thumbs:

 

[HeirofSalvation]

Hi Icon.

This is correct,except I am not worried as there is not an Arminian verse in the bible:smilewinkgrin:

Can I be forward for a second?

I find you to be hard to take very seriously sometimes and the reason is...you actually BELIEVE this statement!!!
Truth is, with any commonly believed Theological postition, there ALWAYS are verses which are "it's". You see, I would not say there are no "Calvinist" verses in the Bible, because, quite frankly, there ARE!! :wavey: There are many passages which are easily interpreted by many very wise and knowledgeable Christians which decidedly seem to imply that the Calvinist system is correct. But, this is also true of Arminianism. There ARE, in fact, "Arminian" verses...and I happen to know that Many God-fearing, Christ-honoring, Scripturally sound, educated men and women have for Centuries fallen on either side of that issue. Honestly, they All have good arguments to support their positions too. It is not as though all Calvinists are in complete solidarity and agreement about all of their soteriological beliefs either; it isn't a Mono-lith.

The fact that so simple a question as "Do the Scriptures properly classify/define "faith" as a "work"?...simply CANNOT be discussed by you except by taking whichever side you think to be most consistent with Calvinism.
You don't argue the point itself...you argue the truth of Calvinism as assumption one, and then demonstrate that your answer is most consistent with assumed premise one...Your view about how to classify faith is wrought in, subject to, chained-by, and only relevant as it stands in relation to your Theological System. There rarely, if ever, is an issue you will discuss without relating it to your Soteriology within 3 or fewer steps.

This is why I tried to tell you that you can BE a Calvinist, and still not think that faith is a work. Yet you don't discuss the issue without bringing up "election" and "sheep" and what-not in a book of the Bible which never even uses the word "faith". How do you "define" a word contrary to how it is clearly shown to be used by appealing to a passage which is frankly irrelevant?

This also is fascinating:
You said,

saving faith is God given, not inherent in the sinner...

And truth is....that is irrelevant. How does that question even come up?? Whether that statement is true, or whether it isn't or, whether indeed it is not inherent, but, "can be purchased at Wal-mart"...is completely irrelevant. I happen to agree with you on the issue but, I also know it not to be germaine to the question.

People often miss the forest for the trees:
You miss the tree because the forest stands in your way.

I honestly don't say this to insult you or degrade you. I know you have VERY thick skin, and aren't a proud man (and I admire that about you) :wavey:
I say this in an attempt at constructive critique. Because you study the Scriptures dilligently, and I think you could be far more effective on this board if you took this critique to heart.

God Bless you :flower:

 

[ryarn]

Withdrawn.......................

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi Icon.

Can I be forward for a second?

Hello Hos.....yes by all means ,please do,

I find you to be hard to take very seriously sometimes and the reason is...you actually BELIEVE this statement!!!

:laugh:You do not have to take me seriously in that I am just a regular believer working out my salvation with fear and trembling. I would recommend that you do take seriously the verses,and links I offer for consideration ,as they are to be taken extremely seriously.
Yes.....I do believe this statement absolutely.You have correctly stated it.
I will of course go on to explain why very shortly.

Truth is, with any commonly believed Theological postition, there ALWAYS are verses which are "it's".

Agreed....

You see, I would not say there are no "Calvinist" verses in the Bible, because, quite frankly, there ARE!!

Yes...I see what you are saying......continue please-

There are many passages which are easily interpreted by many very wise and knowledgeable Christians which decidedly seem to imply that the Calvinist system is correct.

yes...again i see what you are saying ......but the way you have expressed this is starting to give me some cause for concern
I think the concern comes from the phrase- seem to imply-

Now we have posted back and forth several times.I see in this post that you have pulled back from the offensive stance,and seem calm ,and are trying to walk me through step by step and show how that perhaps i have closed myself off from additional ,information, perspectives, writers, and thoughts that would somehow change and modify my positions.
After all.....if a person has done this they would most likely be the last to know. like the brother at the fellowship time who has bad coffee breath and does not realize that he is knocking people out as he speaks and the halitosis is making them wilt,until someone in mercy[or self defense] offers him a breath mint:thumbsup:
So I am thankful that you are doing the correct thing in bringing your view of my outlook up for self examination!

But, this is also true of Arminianism. There ARE, in fact, "Arminian" verses.

Well now this is where we come to find out why we do not agree on some issues.I do not believe this is the case...at all.However you do deserve an explanation as to why.

..and I happen to know that Many God-fearing, Christ-honoring, Scripturally sound, educated men and women have for Centuries fallen on either side of that issue

.

I can agree to this statement to a certain extent. I have a certain way I have come to understand this issue in general. It is not as if I have not had time to think of it,and to search it out. i do try and remain open to scriptural correction.That is why for example....let me use my friend Benjamin as an example. He holds a different POV. He tries to express his POV in terms i reject outright....you have seen in my responses to him...he goes on and on about determinism....which all of us have explained is in reality fatalism.
he does not offer enough of a scripturally based reasoning, but instead seeks to get the "upper hand" by philosophical ideas,and debate strategies.
This will have no effect upon someone like me who seeks to be scripture based ...alone.
Now that being said....some of ideas have some merit, but when he goes off on these reasonings ....we part company.
You have questioned me in times past on someone like CS.Lewis....you and others might find him helpful,while some question his teachings and ideas.
I will not be reading screw tape letters, or any such thing anytime soon.
I do not know anything at all about several other things along this line.
I do not know anything about chronicles of narnia, harry potter, lord of the rings,etc. I have no desire to...at all.[I only know the names of them,but know less than nothing about the ideas or plots,or characters]
If i miss out, i miss out, but that is just how I am wired.I would pick up a systematic theology to read, way before anyone of these.
Pilgrims Progress is the extent of my branching out that way and that was only because Spurgeon and others made frequent reference to it, and I picked up a movie version for my children when they were young.

Honestly, they All have good arguments to support their positions too

.

They believe they do that is why they hold to those ideas. I have read the best of the objections and do not find them to hold water. It boils down to about 6 or 7 verses...jn3;16 i jn 2:2. 1tim 4:10 1tim 2;4 2 pet3:9 rev 3:20maybe Josh 24:15 or a handful of others.

it comes down to ......all, world,whosoever,
it comes down to romans 5;12-21

It also comes down to weak or non existent views of the Covenants of Promise, and wrong dispensational ideas, and a tragically weak view of the cross...making it potential ,rather than actual...

A current non cal that i hear on moody radio sometime is a Man named James Mcdonald...i think the program is walk in the word

http://jamesmacdonald.com/about/doctrinal-statement/
.
I do not shut the radio off as he is reasonably solid on sanctification,and has a good degree of gift and thought process. When i do hear him > mis-speak< doctrinally, i just correct his wrong ideas in my head, lol....like-he really meant to say this..lol.

It is not as though all Calvinists are in complete solidarity and agreement about all of their soteriological beliefs either; it isn't a Mono-lith.

Like any truth there are different levels of maturity and growth than account for differences many times. I also view each doctrine as i would think of a wide Spectrum.....from weak and light, to strong and dark......and then those who are outside of the spectrum on either end. I will not defend when some go beyond the spectrum or fall short of it.
As you might have noticed:laugh: I most likely am found on the more radically staunch side...in between infra-and supralapsarian...pushing that side of the spectrum. I read and try to learn more on that end, without losing track of those who are brothers who do not see it as I do.

pt2 to follow-

 

[Iconoclast]

The fact that so simple a question as "Do the Scriptures properly classify/define "faith" as a "work"?...simply CANNOT be discussed by you except by taking whichever side you think to be most consistent with Calvinism.
You don't argue the point itself...you argue the truth of Calvinism as assumption one, and then demonstrate that your answer is most consistent with assumed premise one...Your view about how to classify faith is wrought in, subject to, chained-by, and only relevant as it stands in relation to your Theological System. There rarely, if ever, is an issue you will discuss without relating it to your Soteriology within 3 or fewer steps.

Yes Hos..this is 100% correct and accurate.Let me explain my thinking here.

1]You don't argue the point itself- exactly right! because God does not give us random facts as if they are answers to trivia questions.God gives us revealed and objective truth. the 66 writings are a whole unit-
so when Jesus teaches you must be born from above...
it does not have to say it in every NT book for that to be so...it never changes...
salvation is by grace.....even if it does not always say it...it never changes
saving faith/belief is God given...it never changes
no man seeks God no not one...it never changes
God saves the elect by covenant promises made before time was...it never changes...etc
So when anyone suggests otherwise, I look to see where is the error.

So far I always find it- the main errors-
1]wrong view of scripture

2] wrong view of God

3] wrong view of sin

4] wrong view of the fall.Rom5.

5] wrong view of the nature of the covenant

6] wrong view of the priestly work of Our Great High Priest

7] wrong view of Israel/Church

8]wrong view of law and grace

This is why I tried to tell you that you can BE a Calvinist, and still not think that faith is a work.

yes, that was a good observation on your part...

yet you don't discuss the issue without bringing up "election" and "sheep" and what-not in a book of the Bible which never even uses the word "faith". How do you "define" a word contrary to how it is clearly shown to be used by appealing to a passage which is frankly irrelevant?

You have already seen "how" by this point.....I start with the clear and basic truth......Electing grace,and Divine Enablement...24/7.
I can make the case that this is the biblical pattern and in fact if someone fails to do this it is a guaranted train wreck ...just waiting to happen.

This also is fascinating:
You said, saving faith is God given, not inherent in the sinner.

..
Yes i did say that several times!

And truth is....that is irrelevant. How does that question even come up?? Whether that statement is true, or whether it isn't or, whether indeed it is not inherent, but, "can be purchased at Wal-mart"...is completely irrelevant. I happen to agree with you on the issue but, I also know it not to be germaine to the question.

Hos.....this is again where we sort of agree in part, but then again ...not!
That you say it is not relevant tells me this.
I believe that those who believe man has faith and the ability to freely exercise that inherent faith if they feel like it...have a wrong and defective view of the noetic effects of the fall.....
So my keeping the discussion under the umbrella of the Covenant of redemption and grace has everything to do with how we determine the biblical place and use of FAITH. I do not fragment any one aspect but as you correctly noted and listed the steps you have consistently observed me using.
The one thing I would point out however is I do see calvinism as just a nickname for correct bible doctrine as taught by Jesus:
14 Now about the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught.

15 And the Jews marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?

16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sent me.

17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.

I believe this is no less than the Covenant of Redemption being unfolded in plain language....so you can understand why I do what I do.
I do not believe it is a man made system. I do believe it is Divine truth...that men have organized to make it readily accessible.

I honestly don't say this to insult you or degrade you. I know you have VERY thick skin, and aren't a proud man (and I admire that about you)
I say this in an attempt at constructive critique. Because you study the Scriptures dilligently, and I think you could be far more effective on this board if you took this critique to heart.

Well...I am thankful that you took time to offer your thoughts, but I am who I am. I have some strengths and some defects, but it is not about me as much as being faithful to Him who has called us.
2 Thou therefore, my son, be strong in the grace that is in Christ Jesus.

2 And the things that thou hast heard of me among many witnesses, the same commit thou to faithful men, who shall be able to teach others also.

3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.
pt2
4 No man that warreth entangleth himself with the affairs of this life; that he may please him who hath chosen him to be a soldier.

5 And if a man also strive for masteries, yet is he not crowned, except he strive lawfully.

6 The husbandman that laboureth must be first partaker of the fruits.

 

[HeirofSalvation]

HeirofSalvation

Hello Hos- I had to stop and take a lunch break here in Boise...before you hurt yourself trying to pat yourself on the back i have not responded clearly enough in offering an explanation...

That NEVER happened in this thread...it is dis-ingenuous for you to suggest as much.