Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
For sure, at the Day of Judgment
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"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.
- Thread starter Alan Dale Gross
- Start date
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You mean this like this:
“No one can come to Me [TOTAL INABILITY] unless the Father who sent Me [UNCONDITIONAL] draws him [IRRESISTIBLE]; and I will raise him up on the last day [PRESERVATION].” - John 6:44
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
That would be funny if it did not actually represent the false view you have of scripture. Talk about reading your religion into scripture, That is eisegesis which is the opposite of how you should study the word of God.
I did a bit of reading and I know why you do not like the ECF's, they hold to man's free will as shown in scripture which stands in opposition to the C/R view.
But you will continue to hold to that pagan philosophy rather than trust the word of God.
Sad really that you are so reluctant to actually do any investigation into the flawed history of the view you so proudly stand by.
The word of God has stood the test of time and the many attacks from false philosophies and it will not be deterred by one more.
The fact augustine brought pagan philosophies into the church is history. That calvin and latter calvinistic teachers just carried those ideas forward is also factual history. Those are the same pagan philosophies that we see in your so called TULIP/DoG and which you so proudly include in you misuse of Joh 6:44.
You may think you are arguing with me but in actual fact you are arguing with God and His word.
You are on the wrong side of that argument.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
Why you say that ? I judge nobody's salvation, thats between them and God, the Day of Judgment is for everyone.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Pro 26:11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit Is a fool who repeats his folly.
Pro 26:12 Do you see a man wise in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.
I have not taken you for a fool but just as someone that was misguided. Was I wrong?
atpollard
Well-Known Member
You tell me to reverse the meaning of the words of Jesus (“no one can come to me” really means “everyone will come to me”) because of the teaching of men that lived hundreds of years later (the ECFs), who concluded that we needed Bishops over the Priests and Priests over the people and baptizing babies and a purgatory for the saints and the Apocrypha in scripture [all contrary to the Sola Scriptura roots of Baptists and the teaching of the actual APOSTLES] … and you ask if I am a fool?
Jesus gave us the New Wine, the ECF returned to the Legalism of Judaism. Who is truly the dog that returned to its vomit? Who is the fool that is repeating his folly?
No sir, I will not join you in reviving the folly of Rome by venerating words of men above the word of God.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
Let’s test that:
JESUS SAID:
“No one can come to Me …”
I called that [TOTAL INABILITY].
Q. So, according to the words of Jesus, who has the ABILITY to come to Jesus?
A. “No one” … that is Total Inability confirmed.
“unless the Father who sent Me”
I called that [UNCONDITIONAL] … short for Unconditional Election.
Q. Jesus has already established that “no one” has the innate power to come to him, here Jesus presents the CONDITION under which those that do come to him, come. According to Jesus, WHO is responsible and WHAT is the CONDITION for their coming?
A. “the Father” is exclusively responsible, not the person, so that affirms ELECTION. There is no CONDITION of merit in the person listed, that affirms that the election is UNCONDITIONAL.
“draws him”
I called that [IRRESISTIBLE] … short for Irresistible Grace.
Q. Jesus has already established that “no one” has the innate power to come to him and that “the Father” is responsible for those that come with no merit from them, so HOW does God do this?
A. God the father “draws him”. The word DRAW is only employed in cases where it is successful ... if I draw a sword and it remains in its scabbard, the sword was “not drawn”. It was only “drawn” if it responds to the “draw”. If I draw your attention, but you never notice me, your attention was “not drawn”. Attention is only “drawn” if you respond to the attempt to draw. Jesus did not say “the Father tries to draw him” but “the Father draws him” … so the GRACE that God used to draw could not have been resisted (or it was a “not draw”). That is the definition of an Irresistible Grace.
“; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
I called that [PRESERVATION] … short for Preservation of the Saints.
Q. Who is “him” and what will happen on the ”last day”?
A. Jesus used “him” twice in this sentence, indicating the same person (“him”) in both parts. In the first half of the sentence “him” was being “drawn” by “the Father” to the Son. In the second half, this same “him” that was drawn to the Son will be raised on the last day. This is a clear promise of eternal life. It is the same promise as “I will never leave you or forsake you” or “no one will snatch you out of my hand” or “I have lost none of those that the Father has given me”. In John 6:44, it is a promise of eternity linked directly to the justification obtained at the foot of the cross. Those drawn to Jesus will be raised by Jesus. Guaranteed. That is “Preservation of the Saints”.
John 6:44
One verse contains 4 of the 5 Doctrines of Grace within it. This is not eisegesis, the TRUTH is in there. You may play scripture pong to prove your “taint so” that Jesus did not mean what Jesus said … but a God that lies seems like a bigger problem than a God that does not save the way that YOU think is “fair”. Jesus said what he said and it means what he said (Not 100% the opposite of what he said).
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Wow that is a stretch. You read your false religion into a text and then claim the bible supports it.
Good thing that bible believers do not abuse the bible the way you do.
Who can come to the Lord? Glad you asked.
Mat 11:28 "Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Joh 7:37 On the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried out, saying, "If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink.
Act 17:26 "And He has made from one blood every nation of men to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined their preappointed times and the boundaries of their dwellings,
Act 17:27 "so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;
So it's those that are heavy laden, those who thirst, from all the nations of the earth. Does not look like inability to me.
Is salvation unconditional? Not according to the bible it isn't.
Act 16:30 And he brought them out and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?"
Act 16:31 So they said, "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household."
Rom 3:22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference;
Rom 3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Rom 5:1 Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,
Rom 10:13 For "whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved."
Faith sure seems to the condition that God has set for ones salvation
Does God draw or drag people to Himself?
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."
Joh 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
I quoted you here " Jesus did not say “the Father tries to draw him” but “the Father draws him” … so the GRACE that God used to draw could not have been resisted (or it was a “not draw”)."
Your words just point out the fact that you read your view into the text.
But lets just say you were correct. Then you have just said the the C/R view is universalism.
Jn 12:32 tells us Christ will draw ALL to Himself. Are you going to tell me the the word all actually means SOME. Did the Holy Spirit get it wrong? We had to wait for the C/R's to correct Him.
Now lets look at Jn 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
But we should ask how are people drawn. Well we know the Holy Spirit convicts people of sin Jn 16:8-9 and creation Rom 1:20-21 but the main way is through the gospel message Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek.
So we see that God is drawing all people to Himself by various means. God desires all people to come to Him and be saved so He reaches out to all people.
But what you really miss is that God has provided the means for the worlds salvation, His son Jesus Christ.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
So while you may think that verse is a killer verse in support of your false view. The word of God shows that you have missed the mark again.
Well it seems that you like to say God has to be fair but that is not biblical. He does not have to be fair but He is just.
Rom_3:26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Odd you say that but you venerate the words of augustine and calvin as you hold to their false philosophy. You have a strange set of values.
You make sweeping accusation against the ECF's but provide zero support for your words. But that is to be expected as they do not support the false philosophy you hold.
Their words are not scripture but they taught the scriptures. Were they always right, no but then again they did not bring pagan teachings into the church did they. Actually they spoke out against those teaching.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.
Nice "taint so" scripture pong, but I believe that Jesus meant what he said ... "no one" means no one, not "everyone".
I am sorry that "the way of the LORD is not fair" in your mind. (Ezekiel 18:25)
atpollard
Well-Known Member
I have never read Augustine or Calvin ... only snippets of quotes that I was generally unimpressed with. They are not Scripture, either. I came to 4 of the 5 points of TULIP at a Wesleyan Church by reading the Bible as a convert from Atheism before I ever heard of TULIP or Calvinism or Arminianism.
1. People are no darn good.
2. Whatever the reason God saves us, it ain't 'cause we deserve it.
3. God does not TRY, God just DOES.
4. God finishes what God starts.
Those are just Basic Bible Truths to anyone that reads scripture honestly. That TU*IP happens to agree, is just convenient.
[For Atonement, I never gave it any thought. Who Jesus died for seemed like "none of my business". I was just grateful that He had died for me and that was good enough.]
So you are wrong about WHAT I believe and WHY I believe it.
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
A question for you and all those that hold to the false view of the C/R, why do you think God has to be "fair"? We do not find that anywhere in scripture but we do find that He is "just".
As you pointed out via Eze 18:25 "Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear now, O house of Israel: Is it My way that is unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust?"
Some men will accuse God of being unjust but the reality is as God said:
Eze 18:26 If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, he will die for this. He will die because of the iniquity he has committed
Eze 18:27 "But if a wicked man turns from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he will save his life."
Now that is God being "just" or you could even call it being "fair" as He does not put His thumb on the scale, so to speak, but allows man to make his own free will choice as too whether he will trust in or reject Him.
JUST & JUSTIFIER
Rom 3:26 for the demonstration, I say, of His righteousness at the present time, so that He would be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
It seems you are really concerned that God will not draw some people to Himself.
What does the bible show us about His drawing mankind:
CREATION
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, so that men are without excuse.
CONVICTION OF SIN
Joh 16:8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
Joh 16:9 in regard to sin, because they do not believe in Me;
THE GOSPEL MESSAGE
Rom 1:16 I am not ashamed of the gospel, because it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, first to the Jew, then to the Greek.
DRAWS ALL PEOPLE
Joh 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw everyone to Myself.”
As you can see God does draw all people so your fear that some people will not be drawn really has no basis in scripture.
I hope this will give you some comfort and ease your mind on this matter. If so I am glad I could help.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
You pulling that out of context, that would be the elect sheep/babes who God has made them feel and realize their lost ruined condition, also its the ones God has not hid truth from them like the ones just mentioned in the context Matt 11:25-28
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
So Jesus isnt calling all humanity, but a specific people who have a spiritual revelation
You pulling that out of context, that would be the elect sheep/babes who God has made them feel and realize their lost ruined condition, also its the ones God has not hid truth from them like the ones just mentioned in the context Matt 11:25-28
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
So Jesus isnt calling all humanity, but a specific people who have a spiritual revelation
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Well if you are comfortable with your view then so be it but is is not what the bible shows us about the love of God for His creation.
The TULIP theology makes a mockery of the love of God and calls His character into question.
How one can square God's desire that all come to repentance and Christ drawing all people with that theological view is indeed a mystery.
Here is what we see in scripture
1] man is sinful but is still able to respond to the drawing of God
2] the reason God saves us is because we have trusted in His risen son
3] God does try as He has provided various means for man to know Him.
4] and He does finish what He starts, His plan has not changed. He saves those that trust in Him and condemns those the reject Him
Those are just Basic Bible Truths to anyone that reads scripture honestly.
atpollard
Well-Known Member
"Able to" but "will not' respond to the call (nobody can stop the hand of Omnipotent God from DRAWING) ... that is the SCRIPTURE you keep ignoring:
First witness: Matthew 23:37 ... "How often would I have ... you were not willing!"
Second witness: John 3:19-20 ... "people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light"
Third witness: Romans 3: 10-12 ... "None is righteous, no, not one ... no one seeks for God ... not even one."
"Every matter must be established by the evidence of two or three witnesses." - 2 Corinthians 13:1
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Come to Me, and I Will Give You Rest
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because You have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children.
Mat 11:26 Yes, Father, for this was well-pleasing in Your sight.
Mat 11:27 All things have been entrusted to Me by My Father. No one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal Him.
Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest.
Mat 11:29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me; for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Mat 11:30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
In contrast with His condemnation on the three Galilean cities {those who though they were wise and learned} Matthew 11:20-24, Jesus issued a great call to those who in faith {those you trusted as little children} would turn to Him. Jesus had previously condemned that generation for their childish reactions Matthew 11:16-19. Here He declared that true discipleship can be enjoyed only by those who come to Him in childlike faith.
Therefore Jesus issued a call to all… who are weary [κοπιάω kopiaō, G2872 “to grow weary, tired, exhausted (with toil or burdens or grief)”] and burdened [φορτίζω phortizō, G5412 “to place a burden upon”] to come to Him.
cf. [φορτίον phortion G5413 "a burden, load"] in Matthew 11:30
So BF the context shows us that it is not limited to what you mistakenly think are the "elect" but is for "all you who are weary and burdened".
So unless you think only the "elect" can be "weary and burdened" it is obvious your understanding of those verses is wrong.
Once again you are trying to read your theology into the text.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Yes because when man is drawn he is under the power and control of God causing him to come and believe. Once God begins the Drawing, its all Gods doing within the person Phil 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
Brightfame52
Well-Known Member
@Silverhair
Duh just discussed that. Thats the elect, the Sheep. How can someone come to Christ if God doesnt reveal Him to them Duh Look at Vs 25-27
who feel no need for Christ
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
And why would Christ be foolish enough to call them unto Him whom the Father hasn't revealed Him to them, and who the Father hides truth from ? Can you explain that ?
Duh just discussed that. Thats the elect, the Sheep. How can someone come to Christ if God doesnt reveal Him to them Duh Look at Vs 25-27
who feel no need for Christ
25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.
27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.
And why would Christ be foolish enough to call them unto Him whom the Father hasn't revealed Him to them, and who the Father hides truth from ? Can you explain that ?
Silverhair
Well-Known Member
Note what the first verse you posted say " you were not willing" not that they could not but that they would not. That is free will @atpollard.
The omnipotent God does draw but draw is not drag as you seem to think. Does Jesus drag all people to Himself as He said he would do if we held too your understanding of "will draw G1670"
Before the glorification of Christ, the Father drew men to the Son (see Joh_6:44-45 and note), but now the Son Himself to Himself. Then it was, ‘no man can come except the Father draw Him:’ now the Son draws all. And, to Himself, as thus uplifted, thus exalted;—the great object of Faith: see Joh_11:52. Alford @ Joh_12:32
In this section we will be looking at the word “draw” G1670 as it is used in this context. “The Complete Word Study Series” by Zodhiates.
Draw G1670
"To draw toward without necessarily the notion of force as in súrō (G4951). ... Helkúō is used by Jesus of the drawing of souls unto Him (Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32, to draw or induce to come)."
TDNT +
In the OT helkein draw {ABP+ G1670} denotes a powerful impulse, as in Son_1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (Joh_12:32) but without which no one can come (Joh_6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic.
One needs to understand the difference between using a word to describe purely physical interactions with inanimate objects like swords or nets or even people who are being physically overpowered, and interactions between persons in reference to their emotions, wills, and other spiritual components. That is why no translation has “drag” in Joh_6:44 or Joh_12:32, since “drag” does not fit the context.
The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, states that helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32” [William Mounce, p. 180].
More reference works could be cited but is it necessary? Not a single one of them defines draw as found in Joh_12:32 or Joh_6:44 as “compel or force.”
God does not force {drag} anyone to come to Him but He does draw all people to Himself.
It is you misunderstanding of this basic concept that seems to have caused you the most trouble.