"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.

[atpollard]

There's no in between, either God chooses who will be saved, and therefore chooses the rest for Hell.

Or God has a plan for man's redemption and man must choose to accept or reject.

What does THIS say:

Romans 9:15-16 [NLT] For God said to Moses, "I will show mercy to anyone I choose, and I will show compassion to anyone I choose." So it is God who decides to show mercy. We can neither choose it nor work for it.

 

[atpollard]

Or maybe you don't understand that Scripture.

Which does THIS teach ... go word for word:

John 3:14-21 [NLT]
14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

100% God choice or 100% man choice?

 

[Charlie24]

Which does THIS teach ... go word for word:

John 3:14-21 [NLT]
14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

100% God choice or 100% man choice?

God foreseen all that would happen with different denominations, different beliefs, and there's a reason for it.

The truth is in the Scripture and it's your responsibility to find it!

God could have written the Scripture in a way that left us with no doubt, no denominations, just one unified Church in Christ.

But He didn't! It's often compared to an interviewer who weeds out the half hearted and those not willing to fall in line with the company.

 

[Silverhair]

Thank you for proving my point.

I acknowledged that your argument COULD be made from other scriptures where the meaning could honestly be debated and discussed (and you made your argument from other scriptures). I was merely pointing out that the context surrounding 2 Peter 3:9 - which Charlie was referencing - does not support 2 Peter 3:9 being about that subject ... and you did not use the context of 2 Peter 3 to support your argument.

So what your trying to support is that God contradicts Himself.

The context of this verse tells us that Peter is writing to believers throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia and in that sense only applies to them but we can not read these verses in isolation. If we are to get the full council of God we must look at the whole council of God.

We know that God desires all people "to come to the knowledge of the truth" v:4 {1Ti_2:1-6} and to come into a saving relationship with Jesus the Christ. Notice who Paul says God wants to be saved, "all men" v:1, "all who are in authority" v:2, "all men to be saved" v:4, "a ransom for all" v:6.
Nevertheless, those of the C/R theological system deny what this verse is saying. Calvinists/Reformed deny that God really does want all to be saved.

Your going to claim that God wants those that are already saved to come to repentance. Not a biblical position but it seems to be yours.

So people that are already saved need to now repent so as to be saved. That is what you are claiming.

 

[atpollard]

So what your trying to support is that God contradicts Himself.

Nope ... that not EVERY verse is about Calvinism vs Arminianism (no matter what HARD DETERMINISTS and FREE WILLERS claim).
Some verses talk about other things (like why Jesus would delay His second coming).

 

[atpollard]

Your going to claim that God wants those that are already saved to come to repentance. Not a biblical position but it seems to be yours.

If Jesus had returned in 100 AD, would you or I be in Heaven?
Now return to 2 Peter 3 and read about why Jesus is delaying his return.
Does it make sense?

 

[Silverhair]

Which does THIS teach ... go word for word:

John 3:14-21 [NLT]
14 And as Moses lifted up the bronze snake on a pole in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 so that everyone who believes in him will have eternal life. 16 "For God loved the world so much that he gave his one and only Son, so that everyone who believes in him will not perish but have eternal life. 17 God sent his Son into the world not to judge the world, but to save the world through him. 18 "There is no judgment against anyone who believes in him. But anyone who does not believe in him has already been judged for not believing in God's one and only Son. 19 And the judgment is based on this fact: God's light came into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 All who do evil hate the light and refuse to go near it for fear their sins will be exposed. 21 But those who do what is right come to the light so others can see that they are doing what God wants."

100% God choice or 100% man choice?

Both, God is 100% responsible for those that are saved. Man cannot save himself. God has chosen to save those that freely trust in His risen son.
Man is 100% responsible for whether he trusts in Jesus or not, God will not force him to do so and does not deny those that do.

 

[atpollard]

Both, God is 100% responsible for those that are saved. Man cannot save himself. God has chosen to save those that freely trust in His risen son.
Man is 100% responsible for whether he trusts in Jesus or not, God will not force him to do so and does not deny those that do.

Charlie says you are wrong ...

There's no in between, either God chooses who will be saved, and therefore chooses the rest for Hell.

Or God has a plan for man's redemption and man must choose to accept or reject.

 

[Charlie24]

Charlie says you are wrong ...

You don't even understand what @Silverhair is saying.

There's no wonder that you're so confused.

 

[Silverhair]

Nope ... that not EVERY verse is about Calvinism vs Arminianism (no matter what HARD DETERMINISTS and FREE WILLERS claim).
Some verses talk about other things (like why Jesus would delay His second coming).

What I said has nothing to do with the C/R vs A view.

Your claim does not hold to the full council of God. It actually contradicts His stated desire.

 

[Silverhair]

If Jesus had returned in 100 AD, would you or I be in Heaven?
Now return to 2 Peter 3 and read about why Jesus is delaying his return.
Does it make sense?

Yes you should go back and read 2Pe 3:9. As Peter wrote God is patient "not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance" So unless you think he thinks those that are already saved need to come to repentance so as to be saved you have obviously misread 2Pe 3:9

That is why Christ is delaying His return so that all can come to repentance. So, for us, it is a good think that He did.

 

[Silverhair]

Charlie says you are wrong ...

As @Charlie24 said "God has a plan for man's redemption and man must choose to accept or reject."

I agree as that is 100% biblical.

God saves 100%
Man must choose 100%

C/R view: God determined all those saved and all those in hell 100%
Man responsible for where he ends up 0%

So all those in hell have the ultimate excuse, I did not have any choice in the matter. So the C/R god is not just. The C/R religion destroys the character of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

Read what you just said BF. Remember your god is deterministic, He has to decree all things not just some things. So if He created them to go to hell they go to hell because He decreed it.

Problem for you is that the bible does not support your view.

The God of scripture desires all to come to repentance which stands in opposition to your god who has decreed that most of creation goes to hell.

If God created an individual knowing that person was going to reject Him all their life and die and go to hell for their sins, yet He gave them being anyway, and He determined to create them anyway, then He created them to go to hell !

 

[atpollard]

If God created an individual knowing that person was going to reject Him all their life and die and go to hell for their sins, yet He gave them being anyway, and He determined to create them anyway, then He created them to go to hell !

Yes, he did.

That part of “the Buck stops with God” even the strongest LIBERTINE FREE WILL argument cannot negate.

 

[Charlie24]

Yes, he did.

That part of “the Buck stops with God” even the strongest LIBERTINE FREE WILL argument cannot negate.

You wouldn't accuse God of that if you understood how procreation works, and the true longsuffering of God.

You speak that of which you have no knowledge!

 

[Silverhair]

If God created an individual knowing that person was going to reject Him all their life and die and go to hell for their sins, yet He gave them being anyway, and He determined to create them anyway, then He created them to go to hell !

BF you are forgetting that the C/R god determines all things so the ones that reject Him and sin all their lives do so because the C/R god has determined that they do so. Those thus determined could not do otherwise could they.

The bible says God desires all to come to repentance but you say He created them to go to hell. Only one cal be true BF so which is it? Should I believe the word of God or the word of man?

 

[Silverhair]

Yes, he did.

That part of “the Buck stops with God” even the strongest LIBERTINE FREE WILL argument cannot negate.

Under the false philosophy of the C/R the problem starts with their version of god.

The C/R's claim the He determines all things then cry fowl when you point out the logical result of the errant view. They have made their version of god responsible for all the sin and chaos that we see in this world.

As you said the buck does stop with God. He is sovereign it's His world so who are we to speak back to God. He in His sovereignty has determined that man will have a free will and that he will be held responsible for the choices he makes with that free will.

If the man chooses to trust in Him [God] for salvation the man will be saved but if the man chooses to reject Him [God] then he will be lost.

That is a simple biblical truth that the C/R's cannot seem to grasp.

 

[Charlie24]

Under the false philosophy of the C/R the problem starts with their version of god.

The C/R's claim the He determines all things then cry fowl when you point out the logical result of the errant view. They have made their version of god responsible for all the sin and chaos that we see in this world.

As you said the buck does stop with God. He in His sovereignty has determined that man will have a free will and will be held responsible for the choices he makes with that free will.

If the man chooses to trust in Him [God] for salvation the man will be saved but if the man chooses to reject Him [God] then he will be lost.

That is a simple biblical truth that the C/R's cannot seem to grasp.

But they have no problem with accusing Him.

 

[Silverhair]

But they have no problem with accusing Him.

I just do not understand how intelligent people can fall for such an unbiblical philosophy.

The C/R view clearly contradicts the word of God and yet they will argue that it is true.

 

[Aaron]

That says they were predestined to be conformed into the image of Christ.

It doesn't say they were predestined to be saved.

LOL, what do you think it means to become a brother of Christ?

29 For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: