"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.

[Charlie24]

That is not the "THEM" that verse is speaking about. Go back and see who God is longsuffering "for" (on account of). That is about Christ delaying his return to allow time for a complete harvest, not because God loves the tares that he will gather and burn at the end of the harvest (Matthew 13 analogy).

God may have a general love for all without exception, I am simply pointing out that the "longsuffering" verse in 2 Peter 3:9 is not about that (it is about something else).

We're coming from two separate views of salvation, we will see it differently.

Peter says in vs. 8 that with the Lord one day is as thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Then he says the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, but longsuffering toward us.

Have you ever wondered why this Church Age is the longest dispensation in time from the very beginning of man? It's been going on now for 2000 years, while the dispensation of the Law lasted only some 1500 years.

God is bearing long with man, to show man His salvation, even though most will reject it in some manner.

Then in vs. 10 Peter enters into the Judgment of God on man.

Peter is telling us that God is delaying the Judgment, not willing that any should perish. Who knows how long this dispensation of the Church Age will last while God is being longsuffering with man?

Will it carry on until God has reached the number He has in mind? What will determine when God God says, that's it, I'm winding this up and bringing Judgment on disobedient man? Then we enter into the Perfect Age with no sin, no unsaved left on earth, and on into infinity we go.

 

[Charlie24]

We're coming from two separate views of salvation, we will see it differently.

Peter says in vs. 8 that with the Lord one day is as thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Then he says the Lord is not slack concerning His promise, but longsuffering toward us.

Have you ever wondered why this Church Age is the longest dispensation in time from the very beginning of man? It's been going on now for 2000 years, while the dispensation of the Law lasted only some 1500 years.

God is bearing long with man, to show man His salvation, even though most will reject it in some manner.

Then in vs. 10 Peter enters into the Judgment of God on man.

Peter is telling us that God is delaying the Judgment, not willing that any should perish. Who knows how long this dispensation of the Church Age will last while God is being longsuffering with man?

Will it carry on until God has reached the number He has in mind? What will determine when God God says, that's it, I'm winding this up and bringing Judgment on disobedient man? Then we enter into the Perfect Age with no sin, no unsaved left on earth, and on into infinity we go.

It's the big picture that we need to look at, God is being longsuffering to man over centuries, millennia's with His salvation.

Meanwhile, during this long period of time, in which we live only the average of 75 years or so, those who accept His Gospel will be saved.

The rest have rejected in some way, and they are doomed to His Judgment.

 

[Silverhair]

That is not the "THEM" that verse is speaking about. Go back and see who God is longsuffering "for" (on account of). That is about Christ delaying his return to allow time for a complete harvest, not because God loves the tares that he will gather and burn at the end of the harvest (Matthew 13 analogy).

God may have a general love for all without exception, I am simply pointing out that the "longsuffering" verse in 2 Peter 3:9 is not about that (it is about something else).

What does the bible tell us about who the "all" are that God does not want to perish?

The bible gives a clear answer
1Ti_2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti_2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Further God has said clearly in Eze 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?"..."and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Are the "wicked" not included in "all men"

And again Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Are you starting to see the pattern here? God wants all to be saved.

You are attempting to split the love of God. You are imposing your man-made philosophy onto the bible.

Unless you want to state that God is not Omnibenevolent, then God, who is all-loving, must want the best for all people.

He has also provided the various means of knowing Him. The reason for the delay in Christ's return is so that all may come to repentance as God's desire is that none should perish.
So it is not just those pre-selected B4 the foundation of the world as some wrongly assume.

 

[Brightfame52]

You really need to learn how to read things in context BF. You continue to make the same mistakes and will not learn from them.

Its True, Paul wrote on it in Rom 9

 

[Brightfame52]

I have already answered that question when I said, "of course He did." Post #82.

That's what this whole thing is about with man and God, it's called "free will."

Man has a choice, BF, God doesn't want anyone to reject Him, but most will, and it's their choice to do so.

Well if He created them knowing they were going to resist all His pleading, longsuffering, etc, and die and go to hell regardless, then He created them to go to hell, its simple as that. You think that after He created them, somehow they will change their mind and obey Him ? Yes or No So He created them to go to hell by their own fault !

 

[Brightfame52]

Well I must have missed the post BF so try again.

Not your opinion but where I actually denied the glorification of the believer.

You are showing that you are just are just a lot of blow and bluster.

im sure you did miss it, whose fault is that

 

[Brightfame52]

@Brightfame52

There will be many at the Judgment who will say, Lord, Lord, we did this and that, But He shall say, depart from me, I never knew you.

They did not come through the Door (through Christ) the way God the Father prescribed we must do.

There is only one way, BF, and that is through our own repentance and belief In Jesus Christ, that is the choice we have no alternative but to make on our own.

God knew the end from the beginning b4 they were born for the day of Judgment, He knew they were going to hell for their sins b4 He created them

 

[Silverhair]

Well if He created them knowing they were going to resist all His pleading, longsuffering, etc, and die and go to hell regardless, then He created them to go to hell, its simple as that. You think that after He created them, somehow they will change their mind and obey Him ? Yes or No So He created them to go to hell by their own fault !

Read what you just said BF. Remember your god is deterministic, He has to decree all things not just some things. So if He created them to go to hell they go to hell because He decreed it.

Problem for you is that the bible does not support your view.

The God of scripture desires all to come to repentance which stands in opposition to your god who has decreed that most of creation goes to hell.

 

[Silverhair]

Its True, Paul wrote on it in Rom 9

Nope, BF you have missed it again. You are talking from your man-made philosophy not from scripture.

 

[Silverhair]

im sure you did miss it, whose fault is that

Yours BF as you are the one making the false claim. Show me the text you claim I posted.

Since you cannot then than means you have lied. Are you comfortable with speaking lies BF?

 

[Silverhair]

God knew the end from the beginning b4 they were born for the day of Judgment, He knew they were going to hell for their sins b4 He created them

But your god decreed that they would sin so the sin falls back to Him. That is not the God of the bible BF.

 

[Charlie24]

Well if He created them knowing they were going to resist all His pleading, longsuffering, etc, and die and go to hell regardless, then He created them to go to hell, its simple as that. You think that after He created them, somehow they will change their mind and obey Him ? Yes or No So He created them to go to hell by their own fault !

Let's discuss how God created man!

God gave man the gift to procreate, but how does that work?

There was a birth that took place in Ishmael that God did not desire. God made the promise that Sarah would conceive and bear a son, and the inheritance would go to him from Abraham.

Sarah didn't believe that and gave her servant to Abraham to bear a child. That was totally not God's will.

But did God stop that birth from taking place? No, He did not.

So it is with all who are born that God knows will not accept His Son, but He doesn't stop those people from being born.

Procreation takes its course, just as you choose who will be your wife.

 

[Charlie24]

Let's discuss how God created man!

God gave man the gift to procreate, but how does that work?

There was a birth that took place in Ishmael that God did not desire. God made the promise that Sarah would conceive and bear a son, and the inheritance would go to him from Abraham.

Sarah didn't believe that and gave her servant to Abraham to bear a child. That was totally not God's will.

But did God stop that birth from taking place? No, He did not.

So it is with all who are born that God knows will not accept His Son, but He doesn't stop those people from being born.

Procreation takes its course, just as you choose who will be your wife.

The bottom line, BF, is that no man who has ever lived will have an excuse to accuse God of unjustly sending him to Hell.

It will be very evident from the Books that will be opened at Judgment how and why they are there.

 

[atpollard]

What does the bible tell us about who the "all" are that God does not want to perish?

The bible gives a clear answer
1Ti_2:3 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior,
1Ti_2:4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Further God has said clearly in Eze 18:23 "Do I have any pleasure at all that the wicked should die?"..."and not that he should turn from his ways and live?

Are the "wicked" not included in "all men"

And again Joh 3:17 "For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

Are you starting to see the pattern here? God wants all to be saved.

You are attempting to split the love of God. You are imposing your man-made philosophy onto the bible.

Unless you want to state that God is not Omnibenevolent, then God, who is all-loving, must want the best for all people.

He has also provided the various means of knowing Him. The reason for the delay in Christ's return is so that all may come to repentance as God's desire is that none should perish.
So it is not just those pre-selected B4 the foundation of the world as some wrongly assume.

Thank you for proving my point.

I acknowledged that your argument COULD be made from other scriptures where the meaning could honestly be debated and discussed (and you made your argument from other scriptures). I was merely pointing out that the context surrounding 2 Peter 3:9 - which Charlie was referencing - does not support 2 Peter 3:9 being about that subject ... and you did not use the context of 2 Peter 3 to support your argument.

 

[atpollard]

Most of this "tit for tat" back and forth is not worth weighing in on ... that is why I tend to only respond to VERY SPECIFIC points raised.
The last thing the world needs in one more voice shouting with nothing to say, so why add my YEA or NAY to the din.

 

[Charlie24]

Most of this "tit for tat" back and forth is not worth weighing in on ... that is why I tend to only respond to VERY SPECIFIC points raised.
The last thing the world needs in one more voice shouting with nothing to say, so why add my YEA or NAY to the din.

The difference is how we view salvation from the Scripture.

If you can't see the many "whosoever will's" and are determined that "all" is not all of mankind, you will most definitely lean to Calvinist theology.

 

[atpollard]

The difference is how we view salvation from the Scripture.

If you can't see the many "whosoever will's" and are determined that "all" is not all of mankind, you will most definitely lean to Calvinist theology.

I do embrace "TULIP", but Brightframe 52 and I differ significantly in our view of what is happening (I think ... it is hard to identify true beliefs from sound bites).

God makes an honest and open offer to all without exception. (God asks nothing that is too hard to do).

All men (without exception - well, but Jesus) reject God's offer. (It is because all men sin and sinners hide from God as Adam hid from God).

God is unwilling to allow all men to follow their freedom to their damnation, so God intervenes with some (drawn by the father, given a new heart, made alive while still dead, shown mercy, received a gift ...)

So the offer is available to ALL and God is responsible for who will receive it. Both are true. Grace is not "prevenient", it is "particular". The Gospel is available to all (and the choice to reject it is on them).

Based on reading all the verses from both sides ... that is what I believe the Bible teaches. To claim salvation is built on man's decision denies too many verses. To claim that the Gospel is not offered to all twists too many verses into pretzels. The Lutherans called this conflict a "mystery" and they were not too far off on that particular point.

 

[Charlie24]

I do embrace "TULIP", but Brightframe 52 and I differ significantly in our view of what is happening (I think ... it is hard to identify true beliefs from sound bites).

God makes an honest and open offer to all without exception. (God asks nothing that is too hard to do).

All men (without exception - well, but Jesus) reject God's offer. (It is because all men sin and sinners hide from God as Adam hid from God).

God is unwilling to allow all men to follow their freedom to their damnation, so God intervenes with some (drawn by the father, given a new heart, made alive while still dead, shown mercy, received a gift ...)

So the offer is available to ALL and God is responsible for who will receive it. Both are true. Grace is nor "prevenient", it is "particular". The Gospel is available to all (and the choice to reject it is on them).

Based on reading all the verses from both sides ... that is what I believe the Bible teaches. To claim salvation is built on man's decision denies too many verses. To claim that the Gospel is not offered to all twists too many verses into pretzels. The Lutherans called this conflict a "mystery" and they were not too far off on that particular point.

There's no in between, either God chooses who will be saved, and therefore chooses the rest for Hell.

Or God has a plan for man's redemption and man must choose to accept or reject.

 

[atpollard]

There's no in between, either God chooses who will be saved, and therefore chooses the rest for Hell.

Or God has a plan for man's redemption and man must choose to accept or reject.

Then you deny HALF of scripture ... whichever you choose.

 

[Charlie24]

Then you deny HALF of scripture ... whichever you choose.

Or maybe you don't understand that Scripture.