"Predestined According to the Purpose of Him Who Works all things According to the Counsel of His Will", Ephesians 1:11.

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair


Yes because when man is drawn he is under the power and control of God causing him to come and believe. Once God begins the Drawing, its all Gods doing within the person Phil 2:13

For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Look at the context, look at what he says in the prior verse:
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" Php_2:12

Who is Paul speaking to, it's born-again believers. So keeping that in mind "for it is God working in you the born-again believer to will and to work according to his good purpose" now is this an effectual work of God on people unilaterally picked before they're born? NO! The context {Php_2:12-14} clearly does not support the C/R view. That is something that you, BF, have to read into the text.

As for the drawing of God see post # 260

 

[Silverhair]

@Silverhair



Duh just discussed that. Thats the elect, the Sheep. How can someone come to Christ if God doesnt reveal Him to them Duh Look at Vs 25-27

who feel no need for Christ

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

And why would Christ be foolish enough to call them unto Him whom the Father hasn't revealed Him to them, and who the Father hides truth from ? Can you explain that ?

BF you are ignoring context again but I am seeing a pattern with your posts.

Are you saying that Christ was foolish what He said He would draw all people and when the Father said He desires all to come to repentance?

 

[atpollard]

Note what the first verse you posted say " you were not willing" not that they could not but that they would not. That is free will @atpollard.

I keep telling you that I am not a Hard Determinist ... and you keep refusing to believe me.

I know ... the offer is genuine ... people CAN but WILL NOT ... GOD must do something about that [like DRAW to Jesus, like MAKE ALIVE those dead, like SHOW MERCY on whom He will show mercy.] (John 6:44-45, Ephesians 2:4-5, Romans 9:15-16)

 

[atpollard]

The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, states that helkuo is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32” [William Mounce, p. 180].

However even "mentally and morally" if the person runs the other way, that is called "NOT DRAW mentally and morally". To "DRAW mentally and morally" the person must come. That makes the DRAW IRRESISTIBLE! (If it was resisted, then it was not a "mental and moral draw that did not draw". That is called "nonsense".)

 

[Brightfame52]

Look at the context, look at what he says in the prior verse:
"Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling;" Php_2:12

Who is Paul speaking to, it's born-again believers. So keeping that in mind "for it is God working in you the born-again believer to will and to work according to his good purpose" now is this an effectual work of God on people unilaterally picked before they're born? NO! The context {Php_2:12-14} clearly does not support the C/R view. That is something that you, BF, have to read into the text.

As for the drawing of God see post # 260

Drawing is the inward power of something, its the greek word helkō

1. to draw, drag off
2. metaph., to draw by inward power, lead, impel

Also once God draws they are born again, the Spirit is now in them

They are being lead, impelled by the Spirit as sons of God Rom 8:

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

 

[Brightfame52]

However even "mentally and morally" if the person runs the other way, that is called "NOT DRAW mentally and morally". To "DRAW mentally and morally" the person must come. That makes the DRAW IRRESISTIBLE! (If it was resisted, then it was not a "mental and moral draw that did not draw". That is called "nonsense".)

Inward power comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit

 

[kyredneck]

Ever and anon the cry of the non Calvinist is, why doth he yet find fault, for who hath resisted his will?

FYI, Silv is anti-Cal. Seems there's not so many non-Cals around anymore.

 

[Silverhair]

I keep telling you that I am not a Hard Determinist ... and you keep refusing to believe me.

I know ... the offer is genuine ... people CAN but WILL NOT ... GOD must do something about that [like DRAW to Jesus, like MAKE ALIVE those dead, like SHOW MERCY on whom He will show mercy.] (John 6:44-45, Ephesians 2:4-5, Romans 9:15-16)

It is not that I do not believe you @atpollard it is what you say that I am responding to.

You say that man will not respond but scripture shows that they can and do just that. God has done many things to show that He exists and that those that will trust in His son will be saved.

And yes it is God that makes man alive but that happens after they believe not so they will believe.

Eph 1:13, Rom 1:20, Joh 16:8-9, Rom 9:16

The difference is that you seem to think God has to make people believe in Him where I see the bible clearly show that it is a free will choice to come to the Father.

 

[Silverhair]

FYI, Silv is anti-Cal. Seems there's not so many non-Cals around anymore.

KY you get it wrong every time. I am not anti-cal the people just the anti the flawed theology that the C/R philosophy tries to push as biblical.

But perhaps I should start saying all you C/R's are anti-bible.

 

[kyredneck]

perhaps I should start saying all you C/R's are anti-bible.

That would be a lie, but as dishonest as you are in your replies, what difference would it make with all the rest of your wearisome claptrap?

 

[kyredneck]

Irenaeus believed Old Testament Gentiles were justified by living according to Greek philosophy.

“Irenaeus said of the age of Jesus, “but the age of 30 years is the first of a young man’s mind, and that it reaches even to the fortieth year, everyone will allow: but after the fortieth and fiftieth year, it begins to verge towards elder age: which our Lord was when He taught, as the Gospel and all the Elders witness…” (Quoted in Before Jerusalem Fell, Kenneth L. Gentry, p. 63) Can we trust the testimony of a man that says Jesus taught for 15 years and was fifty years old when he died? Yet, it is largely his testimony alone, for the latter date!”..."

 

[Silverhair]

However even "mentally and morally" if the person runs the other way, that is called "NOT DRAW mentally and morally". To "DRAW mentally and morally" the person must come. That makes the DRAW IRRESISTIBLE! (If it was resisted, then it was not a "mental and moral draw that did not draw". That is called "nonsense".)

@atpollard how does the person freely coming to God, responding by choice to the gospel message equal an irresistible drawing of God.

Your logic is nonsense @atpollard.

Please explain the drawing of Christ for all people, remembering that in the C/R view you cannot resist the will of God. By what you have said then all not just some people should be drawn to God. Are they? So since they are not then your logic is flawed.

And further since God desires all to come to repentance and Christ is going to draw all men to Himself why do not all come to repentance?

Are you going to suggest:
1] that God did not mean what He said
2] that God {Jesus} cannot accomplish what He said He would do
3] that man can defy God's drawing
4] that the Holy Spirit got it wrong when He inspired the writers of the bible

You are making some really wild assumptions in trying to support your view.

 

[atpollard]

The difference is that you seem to think God has to make people believe in Him where I see the bible clearly show that it is a free will choice to come to the Father.

Not "make" ... empower ... enable ... free from bondage and blindness. Then they not only CAN, they even WANT TO believe.

 

[Silverhair]

“Irenaeus said of the age of Jesus, “but the age of 30 years is the first of a young man’s mind, and that it reaches even to the fortieth year, everyone will allow: but after the fortieth and fiftieth year, it begins to verge towards elder age: which our Lord was when He taught, as the Gospel and all the Elders witness…” (Quoted in Before Jerusalem Fell, Kenneth L. Gentry, p. 63) Can we trust the testimony of a man that says Jesus taught for 15 years and was fifty years old when he died? Yet, it is largely his testimony alone, for the latter date!”..."

Irenaeus was a man that man errors in some of his views and I would use my judgement to in regard to those mistakes.

But I note you still hold to the pagan views that augustine brought into the church and which I have not seen any of those of the C/R view reject.

Making an error about how long Christ taught, which does not alter the gospel message, is not on the same level as bringing pagan philosophy into the church, which has altered the gospel message.

So I ask can we trust those that still teach those pagan philosophies? You be the judge KY.

 

[atpollard]

@atpollard how does the person freely coming to God, responding by choice to the gospel message equal an irresistible drawing of God.

Your logic is nonsense @atpollard.

You accuse me of "nonsense". I plead "guilty as charged":

1 Corinthians 1:18-25 [ESV]
For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. For it is written, "I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe. For Jews demand signs and Greeks seek wisdom, but we preach Christ crucified, a stumbling block to Jews and folly to Gentiles, but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. For the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.


2 Corinthians 4:3-6 [ESV]
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. In their case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. For what we proclaim is not ourselves, but Jesus Christ as Lord, with ourselves as your servants for Jesus' sake. For God, who said, "Let light shine out of darkness," has shone in our hearts to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.


PS: Since we argue so hard, I wanted to take a moment to say "Thank You" and God bless you. Indifference is the enemy, we are brothers engaged in a friendly family squabble over "non-essential things" (our opinions will not change God's mind).

 

[Silverhair]

Not "make" ... empower ... enable ... free from bondage and blindness. Then they not only CAN, they even WANT TO believe.

Note your words. "not only CAN, they even WANT TO believe." that is free will.

If it was IRRESISTIBLE then you should have written "not only CAN, they even HAVE TO believe." They would have no choice in the matter. You are denying simple logic.

God has provided the means for people to know and trust in Him.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The gospel enables all to come to Him but only those that choose too do so will be saved. Note the words "who believes". That is the condition that God has set. Why do those of the C/R religion have such a hard time of trusting the word of God?

 

[atpollard]

Please explain the drawing of Christ for all people, remembering that in the C/R view you cannot resist the will of God. By what you have said then all not just some people should be drawn to God. Are they? So since they are not then your logic is flawed.

And further since God desires all to come to repentance and Christ is going to draw all men to Himself why do not all come to repentance?

Are you going to suggest:
1] that God did not mean what He said
2] that God {Jesus} cannot accomplish what He said He would do
3] that man can defy God's drawing
4] that the Holy Spirit got it wrong when He inspired the writers of the bible

You are making some really wild assumptions in trying to support your view.

I will need a specific verse to give a specific answer (context is important to me), but in general, when Jesus claimed to draw "all men" or "all people" [If I remember, in many cases the Greek just says "draw all" and the object is implied so the translators insert "men" or "people" to complete English grammar]. I believe that often Jesus is speaking to a Jewish only audience (and a non-disciple one or Pharisaical one) so the emphasis may be one Gospel for the whole world in contrast to the prevailing view of God will save the Jews as His chosen people and the rest are on the outside looking in. This all men is the "Jew and Greek" of Paul's letters that features so predominantly. One salvation for all through the Messiah (which is a pretty radical message for a Jewish audience and a great encouragement to a non-Jewish reader).

So:
1. God meant what he said (but what we hear may not be what he said).
2. Jesus did accomplish what he said he will do (unlike drawing Native Americans before the Gospel arrived with Columbus).
3. All drawn do come and Revelation 5 proves that no group of people was on the outside.
4. All scripture really is God-breathed ... we just need to remember "context" and "God succeeds" ... so what actually happens is what God meant to happen (no mistakes).

 

[atpollard]

Note your words. "not only CAN, they even WANT TO believe." that is free will.

If it was IRRESISTIBLE then you should have written "not only CAN, they even HAVE TO believe." They would have no choice in the matter. You are denying simple logic.

God has provided the means for people to know and trust in Him.
Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The gospel enables all to come to Him but only those that choose too do so will be saved. Note the words "who believes". That is the condition that God has set. Why do those of the C/R religion have such a hard time of trusting the word of God?

and yet ... "it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13 [ESV] ... so CAN and WANT TO and HAVE TO are inseparable when "I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules." - Ezekiel 36:26-27 [ESV]

That is why "'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy." - Romans 9:15-16 [ESV] and "by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9 [ESV]

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

@atpollard how does the person freely coming to God, responding by choice to the gospel message equal an irresistible drawing of God.

I will respond to that:

By Gods Power Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

 

[Brightfame52]

@Silverhair

Rom 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

The Gospel is the Power of God causing the believing.