Predestined to Damnation?

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

JD: You see, ANY interpretation of scripture is okay with you guys as long as it takes God's Sovereignty away and leaves man with a thread of "dignity" and "worth". Oh, and of course, "free" will.

HP: It is God that hath made us and not we ourselves. God has endowed man with a will to chose and the ability to form intents, and that by His own Sovereign will. Man has dignity and worth, because He hath made us so. Even a man lying in a gutter has dignity and worth. Such a one is created in the image of God Himself. To recognize these truths takes nothing away from a Sovereign God, nor does it elevate man to a level that God has not foreordained him to possess.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

JD: You see, ANY interpretation of scripture is okay with you guys as long as it takes God's Sovereignty away and leaves man with a thread of "dignity" and "worth". Oh, and of course, "free" will.

Such a one is created in the image of God Himself. To recognize these truths takes nothing away from a Sovereign God, nor does it elevate man to a level that God has not foreordained him to possess.

Just look how JD's observation is confirmed true by HP!
"Such a one is created in the image of God Himself. To recognize these truths ...", says HP

No, such a one is fallen far from the image of God Himself; if you want to see one in the perfect image of God, look at the spotless Jesus!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

tragic pizza:

"Reformed theology embraces no doctrine of a presestination to damnation."

As I said before, sin brings one and has brought all of us to and into damnation --- yet not automatically as if it has an intrinsic power to; for God is the only Potentate, and Jesus only has the keys of hell - God predestined that sin shall be rewarded with damnation - it is the will of God, and decided in His eternal Council.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Else we with some good enough effort might have escaped our deserved damnation.

 

[Brother Bob]

Else we with some good enough effort might have escaped our deserved damnation.

Wonder why Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world?

Those who try and interpet the mind of God when no man hath known His mind or been His councelor.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Wonder why Jesus stood as a slain Lamb from the foundation of the world?

Those who try and interpet the mind of God when no man hath known His mind or been His councelor.

He stood as a lamb slain because He was thus ordained from eternity - not out of exigency. God wasn't surprised by sin or corrupted man.
Besides, we now know very well God's intent and purpose of from before the beginning -- it has been revealed -- to us -- through Jesus Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

GE: He stood as a lamb slain because He was thus ordained from eternity - not out of exigency. God wasn't surprised by sin or corrupted man.
Besides, we now know very well God's intent and purpose of from before the beginning -- it has been revealed -- to us -- through Jesus Christ.

HP: You see precious little about the intents and purposes of God by the examination of an act of God. Because Christ died for our sins, and that fact has been revealed to us, does not equate to believing that the product of that act, i.e., our salvation, was necessitated by that act.

Because nothing surprises God, that in no way equates to the necessity of our salvation or in the necessity of the damnation of the damned. Your logic is flawed in that you are reasoning that because God foreknows it must of necessity come to pass and that by God’s intention and design. That is simply a false notion, and if it were true would necessitate God being the designer, creator, and author of all sin, for He foreknew that as well.

The logical ends of your logic paints a most wicked blight on the character of God. I do not believe for a minute that you do so intentionally, but just the same, logic demands you accept the logical ends of your argument. If you see something warped and totally unjust by making God the author of sin, you must rethink your position on the foreknowledge of God necessitating the outcome.

 

[Brother Bob]

Who hath known the mind of God and who hath been His councelor.

You know, The Scripture plainly tells us that we don't know the mind of God, but yet some tell us anyway.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

HP: I agree Brother Bob.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Consider what one is suggesting he knows by mandating that 'if in fact' God foreknows something, it is of necessity that it comes to pass. One is mandating that God’s foreknowledge is LIMITED to things of necessity, i.e. if He foreknows it must of necessity come to pass, and that God could not foreknow things of perfect choice. Who knows the mind of God and who can limit his foreknowledge to that which mere man possesses? Who are we to limit God thus? Are we God's counselors?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Either one is predestined to be saved or he is not. If by predestined to salvation suggests that no other possibility exists other than to be saved due to God foreknowing it, is not the converse also true in that those God knows are not of the elect never had any other possibility than to be those predestined to damnation? Think hard and consider this well.

Is God Omniscient? Then He foreknows both those predestined to salvation and those predestined to damnation. It again is logical insanity to state I believe in the predestination of the elect, but refuse to accept the logical end of the predestination of the damned as well.

Would the Baptist that claims not to be a Calvinist, and states that he refuses to believe that God predestines the damned, and that God sends men to an eternal hell for doing nothing other than what God predestined them to be and that by necessity, please explain to me why they are not a Calvinist on this point? Show us logically how one can believe in the predestination of the elect without believing in the predestination of the damned.

I ask you again, is God Omniscient or not?

 

[TaterTot]

I Peter 2 7Now to you who believe, this stone is precious. But to those who do not believe, "The stone the builders rejected has become the capstone,"[c] 8and, "A stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall."[d] They stumble because they disobey the message—which is also what they were destined for.

and then in His high priestly prayer in John 17

12While I was with them, I protected them and kept them safe by that name you gave me. None has been lost except the one doomed to destruction so that Scripture would be fulfilled.

Looking at those passages, its difficult (for me) to see it any other way that what the Bible plainly states. Its is hard to swallow though.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tater Tot: Looking at those passages, its difficult (for me) to see it any other way that what the Bible plainly states. Its is hard to swallow though.

HP: You can accept it if you so choose, but when you do, you have unwittingly accepted the logical consequents of that position as well. If one cannot accept the logical consequents that God is the author of all evil, and that He predestined the damned to an eternal hell without there ever being the slightest hint of any other destination possible for them, and that the evil they do is nothing more or less than the predestined acts designed and forced into play by God Himself and that by necessity,…………Yes I would agree that not only is that hard to swallow but logical insanity, to say nothing about the blight it places upon a Holy and Just God.

The problem you exemplify with your post is that you are filtering the rendering of the texts in question through the filter of your presupposition that if in fact God foreknows it must of necessity come to pass. What you believe you are seeing as what the ‘Bible plainly states” is nothing more than the reflection of the presupposition you are filtering the text through, although subconsciously I am certain.

Let me ask you a question. Could the possibility even exist that God could foreknow matters of perfect choice, and that His Omniscience allows Him to foreknow matters not necessitated but rather are the product of the intents formed by a free will granted to every man? If not why not?

If necessity demands the outcome and that due to God’s foreknowledge it must of necessity come to pass, how can God justly blame or praise man for that which He necessitated?

How can you avoid God not being the creator of all evil, on the same basis you establish His predestination to salvation or anything else? Does He foreknow all evil that is to take place? Why is He then not the creator , by predestining and or foreknowing, all evil before it ever happens and that it will of necessity come to pass as a result of that knowledge?

 

[LeBuick]

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

LeBuick: Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

HP:Whosoever will, and let him take of the waters of life freely indeed proclaim that the will of man is indeed involved in the salvation process. Eliminate the role of man’s will in salvation and the error one will of necessity fall into is legion.

In all our discussions there appears to be precious few of those men and women in leadership positions, with those ‘major credentials’ we hear spoken about, defending the defenseless positions of predestination and salvation apart from the will of man being involved. I would like to see some of those preaching such notions, or those teaching such notions in our Christian schools, to enter into these discussions to lend support to those on this list that have sat under the teaching of like doctrines, to come to the aide of those brave enough to attempt to defend such notions on this list. I am proud of those here that have been open and willing to discuss the doctrinal positions that they have sat under and had the backbone, even at the expense of personal vulnerability, to openly discuss their feelings. The time has come for their teachers of such notions to come to their aide.

Where are the promoters of the notion that the will of man is not in any way involved in the salvation process, and that God predestines those to be saved without any considerstion of the free formation of intents of the will being the means by which God foreknew their election?

 

[BD17]

HP:Whosoever will, and let him take of the waters of life freely indeed proclaim that the will of man is indeed involved in the salvation process. Eliminate the role of man’s will in salvation and the error one will of necessity fall into is legion.

In all our discussions there appears to be precious few of those men and women in leadership positions, with those ‘major credentials’ we hear spoken about, defending the defenseless positions of predestination and salvation apart from the will of man being involved. I would like to see some of those preaching such notions, or those teaching such notions in our Christian schools, to enter into these discussions to lend support to those on this list that have sat under the teaching of like doctrines, to come to the aide of those brave enough to attempt to defend such notions on this list. I am proud of those here that have been open and willing to discuss the doctrinal positions that they have sat under and had the backbone, even at the expense of personal vulnerability, to openly discuss their feelings. The time has come for their teachers of such notions to come to their aide.

Where are the promoters of the notion that the will of man is not in any way involved in the salvation process, and that God predestines those to be saved without any considerstion of the free formation of intents of the will being the means by which God foreknew their election?

Hp you talk big of accepting the "Logical consequences" of such belief, but are unable to accept your own "logical consequences" of your belief.

God is not the author of evil he controls it and uses it to His own glory. God designed that Christ be persecuted and crucified, a horrible and evil way to die, yet God planned it that way did he not? So that His glory and grace may be known. God allows evil so that He can use it for His own purpose, and the purpose for creating some vessels for destruction? So that His glory and grace may be known. I have no problem with that , makes me all the more thankful that I am not one of them. All the more thankful to God who deserves all my thanks and praise for EVERYTHING that I recieve in my life including my salvation.


Answer this HP did the people who crucified CHrist have a choice not to? If so, and they decided not to, would Christ have been crucified? Would there have been another Judas?

 

[BD17]

Does it make you feel like you are right and have once and for all defeated the "Evil" views of calvinism when no one answers your callout HP. You have been given more than enough truth from people here, such as Rippon, JD, Tater Tot, Gerhard Eberson, myself, and many others. You just decide to stay in your self-appreciating beliefs.

I guess I cannot blame you it may be what you were destined for.

 

[BD17]

Consider what one is suggesting he knows by mandating that 'if in fact' God foreknows something, it is of necessity that it comes to pass. One is mandating that God’s foreknowledge is LIMITED to things of necessity, i.e. if He foreknows it must of necessity come to pass, and that God could not foreknow things of perfect choice. Who knows the mind of God and who can limit his foreknowledge to that which mere man possesses? Who are we to limit God thus? Are we God's counselors?

You limit God thus by putting yourself on a pedestal and telling God He has no say in your life, even though HE created you. You are HIS from beginning to end, and everything in between, HE uses you and everyone else to fulfill His purpose for the world HE created. He can do as He pleases when He pleases, and we can do nothing about it, everything is for His glory. The sooner people start acting that way the sooner our problems go away.

Your view of foreknowledge as a God, who sits idly by and can do nothing unless the person decides to let Him in is the weakest view of God I can possibly imagine. The God who created the heavens and the earth, from nothing, thwarted by mere man His own creation, how sad for you that your god is not able to do things for you unless you ask Him to. Even sadder still that you will not allow Him to without your permission. The great almight reduced to sitting on HIs knees hoping that man will choose Him, pleading that since they have a choice that the possibility of not one single human ever choosing Him exists and that His son died for nothing.

 

[webdog]

Answer this HP did the people who crucified CHrist have a choice not to? If so, and they decided not to, would Christ have been crucified? Would there have been another Judas?

How does this measure against God's omniscience and omnipresence (omnitemporalness)? If you can answer this, you have your answer.

You limit God thus by putting yourself on a pedestal and telling God He has no say in your life, even though HE created you.

And you let mankind off the hook because everything was predetermined to begin with. Two sides of the same coin.

Your view of foreknowledge as a God, who sits idly by and can do nothing unless the person decides to let Him in is the weakest view of God I can possibly imagine.

HP's view (and mine) of God is that of a father who wants to be a father to all (2 Peter 3:9). Forced love is no love at all. The view you espouse, while claiming it's a loving view of God, is just the opposite.

 

[BD17]

How does this measure against God's omniscience and omnipresence (omnitemporalness)? If you can answer this, you have your answer.

And you let mankind off the hook because everything was predetermined to begin with. Two sides of the same coin.

HP's view (and mine) of God is that of a father who wants to be a father to all (2 Peter 3:9). Forced love is no love at all. The view you espouse, while claiming it's a loving view of God, is just the opposite.

I am sorry you see it that way WD, but the God I know was loving enough to have grace on me and send His son to ensure my place in Heaven.