Predestined to what?

The "gift of God", the "it" is the whole phrase "grace through faith". They are synominous with one another. You do not receive eternal life (God's grace) without faith. This is Scripture. Eternal life (God's grace) NEVER precedes faith.

 

By grace you have been saved through faith. How were we saved? By grace. By which means does that get accomplished? Faith. Grace before faith that is scripture.

 

By Grace are you saved "through" faith. Now BD17 is trying to turn this Scripture around but won't work!

 

What comes first...

By me opening the door(grace)you are saved through walking through it, and this is not of yourself it is my gift to you. Could you have been saved if I had not opened the door? No.

God 's grace allows you to have faith. Grace BEFORE faith.

 

Again, you are trying to say there is only one act of grace by God. I already agreed that God acts first. This is grace. However, THE grace (eternal life) mentioned in Ephesians 2 does not come before faith, but AFTER one has faith in Christ. You are not arguing with me, this is what the Scriptures so plainly say.

 

When you diagram Ephesians 2:8, you see that it is grace that is the gift of God.

 

Then why does it not say "through faith you are saved and then recieved the grace of God?"

It says BY GRACE YOU ARE SAVED, without grace their could be no faith or salvation. Grace is first. Sola Scriptura.

 

Thank you Hope of Glory. I believe Calvibaptist also explained the correct way to view this also.

 

You cannot separate GRACE YOU ARE SAVED from "through faith". Period. God sets the rules, not man. Salvation is the "gift" in Ephesians 2. God commands that man have faith in Christ IN ORDER to receive salvation, i.e., God's grace. Sola Scriptura.

 

faith is the means by which God saves, if they said "by grace you are saved through hopping on one foot through a hoop and counting to ten, and this is not of yourselves but is the gift of God."
That doesn't mean that hopping on one foot through a hoop and counting to ten came before grace. Yes the it can mean the entire phrase, but that does not mean that faith came before grace. Let's look at the entire chapter...



1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.


One in Christ
11Therefore remember that at one time you Gentiles in the flesh, called "the uncircumcision" by what is called the circumcision, which is made in the flesh by hands-- 12remember that you were at that time separated from Christ, alienated from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made us both one and has broken down in his flesh the dividing wall of hostility 15by abolishing the law of commandments and ordinances, that he might create in himself one new man in place of the two, so making peace, 16and might reconcile us both to God in one body through the cross, thereby killing the hostility. 17And he came and preached peace to you who were far off and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access in one Spirit to the Father. 19So then you are no longer strangers and aliens,[c] but you are fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone, 21in whom the whole structure, being joined together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord. 22In him you also are being built together into a dwelling place for God by[d] the Spirit.



It says in there twice that you are saved by grace. First in verse 5 ( which by the way does not include through faith) and second in verse 8. What are all the proceeding verses talking about? The are talking about how we are dead and if it was not for GOd's GRACE we would not be saved and raised up with Christ. Grace before faith. Sola Scriptura.

 

Through faith
Grace saves but through faith. Tell you what take the faith away and you won't get the Grace.

I can see why though you would argue it the other way for if I believed you didn't have any faith until after you were saved I would argue that way too.

 

While salvation is a gift, that's not the subject of this verse. This verse says that it's grace that is the gift of God. So, salvation is not the gift in Ephesians 2:8.

 

If salvation is not the grace mentioned, what is it? What other "grace" do we get through faith?

 

That Hope; is debatable. I say take Salvation out of it and it would make no sense.

 

Exactly. The grace of God sending His Son does not need man's faith. God does say that faith is required to partake in salvation (His grace being mentioned in Eph. 2).

 

Grace is not salvation, the verse says by grace you have been saved or by grace you have received salvation... grace and salvation are to different things in this verse. If they were the same then it would say by grace you have recieved grace or been graced, THAT would make no sense.

 

The Scripture is using all three, Grace, Salvation and Faith to make a statement. Now you can start removing them one at a time if you want but then you lose what the Scripture is saying.

Talk about going through a door. Well if Salvation by Grace but through a door (faith), then I would have to go through the door.:thumbsup:

 

Grace has to do with the way we live.

Hebrews 12:28 says, "Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: "

What is the grace of God? 2 Corinthians 12:9 says, “And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.” How do we get the power of Christ? The answer to that question is in Romans 5:2: “By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” If we make shipwreck of the faith, then grace will not be available for us to endure in times of testing. We need the grace of God, if we expect to serve Him in an acceptable manner.

Hebrews 12:28 says, “Let us have (it’s subjunctive; literally, “may we have”) grace, whereby we may serve (present, active, subjunctive) God acceptably with reverence and godly fear.” If we cannot access the grace, then we cannot expect to “…receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.” (You find that in Colossians 3:24.) Grace must reign! Romans 5:21 says, “So might grace reign through righteousness…” Grace does not reign simply because we’re saved. In Romans 5:21, the verb “might reign” is subjunctive, which indicates that grace might not reign. Grace reigns if we continually come to the throne of grace as in Hebrews 4:16, “Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in the time of need.”

Hebrews 11:1 says, "Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Now, “faith”, which is a noun, gives substance and evidence to things not seen. Faith is the substance that allows us to please God. Verse 6 says, “But without faith it is impossible to please him...” Only the just, the obedient, can live by faith. Faith gives substance to grace. Romans 5:2 says, “...we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand...” If we do not access grace by faith we will not have the power of God we need to endure.

It has to do with how we live our lives.

 

Hope;
I don't know why you left the one out we started with but I take Grace to be the love of God and indeed the following Scripture tells of how we live but not in this life but the hereafter through faith.

Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

"9": Not of works, lest any man should boast.

"10": For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.