Brother Bob
New Member
Help us out. How is quoting this phrase in Eccl. germane to the topic?[/quote]
I was just going along with your statement above, seem to fit perfectly.
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Predestined to what?
- Thread starter Skandelon
- Start date
Help us out. How is quoting this phrase in Eccl. germane to the topic?[/quote]
I was just going along with your statement above, seem to fit perfectly.
Brother Bob
New Member
The C/A argument. It just goes back and forth and back and forth and we all know that none of us are going to change our minds. Don't you agree?
Also, I think who you spoke earlier was Mark Hilton.
Also, I think who you spoke earlier was Mark Hilton.
Last edited by a moderator:
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
npetreley said:
I'd be interested to read the writings that Luther was obviously addressing in this passage. (I assume by Erasmus?)
By posting this I assume you think that I believe the hardening of God to merely be described as being: "by His long-suffering and mercy He gave them an occasion of becoming hardened," but that is certainly not my position. (I cannot speak for Luther's opponent)
I believe hardening is God's judicial act of sealing one in their current state of rebellion so that he is unable to see, hear or understand His revelations and turn from his ways. He can do this by more "natural" means such as speaking in parables so as to provoke men to anger and confuse them. Or possibly by supernatural means such as "sending a spirit of stupor" to blind men.
NP, do you believe Luther was addressing someone who held to this view of judicial hardening?
'inability' to change?
I find it interesting that I changed from arminian to calvinist after 70 yrs of life! Now, I admit I didnt actually know I was arminian and certainly knew nothing about calvinism. However, I did know that the baptist church I was attending was just giving motivational talks and finding a verse to substantiate their point. That is NOT biblical preaching! Wow, What I now hear is verse by verse and even I am amazed at how much I"ve learned of the word in this past 5 years! Wonders never cease! With God all things are possible! It could happen to you!
I find it interesting that I changed from arminian to calvinist after 70 yrs of life! Now, I admit I didnt actually know I was arminian and certainly knew nothing about calvinism. However, I did know that the baptist church I was attending was just giving motivational talks and finding a verse to substantiate their point. That is NOT biblical preaching! Wow, What I now hear is verse by verse and even I am amazed at how much I"ve learned of the word in this past 5 years! Wonders never cease! With God all things are possible! It could happen to you!
Brother Bob said:
I do agree. Once in a blue moon someone might become more Reformed or may become more Arminian, but it's extremely rare, and it's usually due to their own study. I don't know if websites like this one cause anyone to change their minds about too much :laugh:
Huh?
Brother Bob
New Member
You mentioned once by pm that you were in this part once and had a friend here. The pastor of the church you mentioned is Mark Hylton or Hilton, not sure, at least I think that was the name given me.
epistemaniac
New Member
Skandelon said:
perhaps `tis you that is mistaken...
I believe that both corporate and individual election appear in the Bible..... Romans 8 and 9, and Eph 1 teach individual election, while other passages teach a corporate view.... what strikes me as a mistake is for people to act like good men and women of God can't find individual election in the Bible.... I mean, its one thing to disagree with someone... fine..... disagree... but to totally dismiss people in such a fashion is what really strikes me as dishonest. One might or even ought to think that it is odd that so many devoted Christians find individual election in the Bible if there is just absolutely no trace of it..... of course, so many good people could be mistaken, but surely their beliefs are based on certain passages in the Bible itself... they don't usually believe in particular/individual election to salvation just because they think it a pretty cool concept, or that they heard someone somewhere sometime or other believed it, so they thought that they would believe it too...... that is absurd and insulting.
blessings, Ken
epistemaniac
New Member
hey all
brother Bob, you said
I totally agree! That is why I think that when you (or anyone else) appeal to Rev. 3:20 as a universal call is mistaken.... for who was John writing to in that chapter? Answer: the church. John makes this clear by the context of Rev. 3:20...
Rev 3:19-22 esv Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.
(20) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
(21) The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
(22) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Since it as you say, the church is not a saving machine, it is the place of the already saved, then John simply can't be speaking to non-Christians in Rev. 3
blessings,
Ken
brother Bob, you said
I totally agree! That is why I think that when you (or anyone else) appeal to Rev. 3:20 as a universal call is mistaken.... for who was John writing to in that chapter? Answer: the church. John makes this clear by the context of Rev. 3:20...
Rev 3:19-22 esv Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent.
(20) Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me.
(21) The one who conquers, I will grant him to sit with me on my throne, as I also conquered and sat down with my Father on his throne.
(22) He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches."
Since it as you say, the church is not a saving machine, it is the place of the already saved, then John simply can't be speaking to non-Christians in Rev. 3
blessings,
Ken
epistemaniac
New Member
also.. Bob... I wanted to ask you a personal question... and I mean no disrespect to you at all, so please do not be offended... I know that you are a Pastor, have been for a long time... you have your church, your livlihood... if.... if... you were convinced that Calvinism were correct, what would happen to your pastorate?
blessings,
Ken
blessings,
Ken
Skandelon
<b>Moderator</b>
epistemaniac said:perhaps `tis you that is mistaken...
I believe that both corporate and individual election appear in the Bible..... Romans 8 and 9, and Eph 1 teach individual election, while other passages teach a corporate view.... what strikes me as a mistake is for people to act like good men and women of God can't find individual election in the Bible.... I mean, its one thing to disagree with someone... fine..... disagree... but to totally dismiss people in such a fashion is what really strikes me as dishonest. One might or even ought to think that it is odd that so many devoted Christians find individual election in the Bible if there is just absolutely no trace of it..... of course, so many good people could be mistaken, but surely their beliefs are based on certain passages in the Bible itself... they don't usually believe in particular/individual election to salvation just because they think it a pretty cool concept, or that they heard someone somewhere sometime or other believed it, so they thought that they would believe it too...... that is absurd and insulting.
blessings, Ken
Maybe if you could actually deal with what has been written rather than setting up a strawman then we could discuss our disagreement. If you could quote the chapter and verse and explain why you believe it to be in support of your views then I would be happy to address it. I don't believe anyone here has denied that their are individuals involved in the doctrine of election.
epistemaniac
New Member
oh... and Bob (lol... I am not picking on you )...
one thing I am seeing you do is to pit Paul against Jesus.... Matthew, Mark, Luke, John AND Paul were inspired and wrote the infallible word through the Holy Spirit... correct?
you said
that’s interesting... well.. I can appeal to Jesus and say that His raising Lazarus from the dead is actually a better picture of salvation... when Lazarus came forth from the grave, did he just decide to come back to life? When it comes down to it, what “say” did Lazarus have in the matter at all? Why would you choose the passage you chose as a paradigm through which to judge how the salvation experience takes place? I can tell you that this whole event (the raising of Lazarus) makes me interpret Paul and seems to make the most sense of Paul’s language when he describes the unsaved... and makes the most sense of Eph. chapters 1 and 2...... just as Jesus raised a dead man, so too, Paul says we are dead in our sins, and when Jesus calls us, the only way we come to Him is if He first brings us to life... and THAT makes the most sense, for me anyway, of the whole concept of being born again... or as it might better be translated... being born from above. When we are saved, then, we are called up from the dead, which we cannot do of ourselves, after we die we don’t just decide to come back to life, and we are born from above, which, again, is not something we do, the Spirit goes where ever He wills....
Joh 3:8 esv The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” THIS implies that the Spirit does not go to everyone in the same way. If the Holy Spirit did, it makes little sense for Jesus to make such a distinction when telling Nicodemas how it is a person can be saved, and, how they MUST be saved, eg, by being born from above. When Jesus tells us the “how” regarding a person being saved, He agrees perfectly with Paul, Jesus says:
Joh 1:12-13 esv
(12) But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
So simply ask yourself this question: according to this passage, by whose will are people saved? By whose will do people become children of God? D. A. Carson comments on this passage: “The form of 1:12f--- emphasis on human responsibility, followed by an accent on divine sovereignty which lays waste human pretensions --- is found elsewhere in John (eg 6:40-45; 6:66-70) For what is worth, the tenses and context of 1 Jn. 5:1 (1Jo 5:1 esv Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.) strongly argue that faith, like love, (1 Jn 4:8) is the evidence of the new birth, not its cause.” (Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility; Biblical Perspectives in Tension, p182) So, sure, people have to believe in His name, they have to receive Him, but this passage plainly tells us that those who do this do so BECAUSE of the will of God. Now, since it is also likewise clear that not all are saved, apparently there is some distinction in God’s mind regarding the will of God in the sending of the Spirit as far as the salvation of man is concerned.
Another concept that was brought to my attention as I wrestled through these things, is that in John, in many cases, when he speaks of the “world” he is not, as I once thought, speaking of the elect only, nor are those who believe in a universal prevenient grace correct in thinking that John is referring to the population of the entire world, rather, for John, the “world” represents the darkness, that is, its not so much the “bigness” of the world that John is concerned with, rather it’s the “badness”.
Joh 1:10 esv He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.”
Joh 7:7 esv The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.”
Jesus makes sure that His hearers know that not one of them in the world/kosmos keeps the law, they are all lawbreakers, and are thus, from “below”.
Joh 7:19 esv Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?
Joh 8:23 esv He said to them, You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.”
So for all the cases of Jesus being sent to the “world”, that God so loved the “world”, apparently John does not have in mind “everyone without exception”.
Anyway, I hope this is helpful to you in considering another perspective, that those who believe in God’s sovereignty in election and salvation, do not have to twist or distort Jesus’ words to properly interpret them, indeed, proper interpretation has to recognize the way a given author uses words, and not inject the words of Scripture with their own understanding of what “world” must mean. If we let the Bible explain to us how a given word is used, we are a lot safer and a lot surer in our interpretation.
Blessings,
Ken
)... one thing I am seeing you do is to pit Paul against Jesus.... Matthew, Mark, Luke, John AND Paul were inspired and wrote the infallible word through the Holy Spirit... correct?
you said
that’s interesting... well.. I can appeal to Jesus and say that His raising Lazarus from the dead is actually a better picture of salvation... when Lazarus came forth from the grave, did he just decide to come back to life? When it comes down to it, what “say” did Lazarus have in the matter at all? Why would you choose the passage you chose as a paradigm through which to judge how the salvation experience takes place? I can tell you that this whole event (the raising of Lazarus) makes me interpret Paul and seems to make the most sense of Paul’s language when he describes the unsaved... and makes the most sense of Eph. chapters 1 and 2...... just as Jesus raised a dead man, so too, Paul says we are dead in our sins, and when Jesus calls us, the only way we come to Him is if He first brings us to life... and THAT makes the most sense, for me anyway, of the whole concept of being born again... or as it might better be translated... being born from above. When we are saved, then, we are called up from the dead, which we cannot do of ourselves, after we die we don’t just decide to come back to life, and we are born from above, which, again, is not something we do, the Spirit goes where ever He wills....
Joh 3:8 esv The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it goes. So it is with everyone who is born of the Spirit.” THIS implies that the Spirit does not go to everyone in the same way. If the Holy Spirit did, it makes little sense for Jesus to make such a distinction when telling Nicodemas how it is a person can be saved, and, how they MUST be saved, eg, by being born from above. When Jesus tells us the “how” regarding a person being saved, He agrees perfectly with Paul, Jesus says:
Joh 1:12-13 esv
(12) But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, (13) who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
So simply ask yourself this question: according to this passage, by whose will are people saved? By whose will do people become children of God? D. A. Carson comments on this passage: “The form of 1:12f--- emphasis on human responsibility, followed by an accent on divine sovereignty which lays waste human pretensions --- is found elsewhere in John (eg 6:40-45; 6:66-70) For what is worth, the tenses and context of 1 Jn. 5:1 (1Jo 5:1 esv Everyone who believes that Jesus is the Christ has been born of God, and everyone who loves the Father loves whoever has been born of him.) strongly argue that faith, like love, (1 Jn 4:8) is the evidence of the new birth, not its cause.” (Divine Sovereignty and Human Responsibility; Biblical Perspectives in Tension, p182) So, sure, people have to believe in His name, they have to receive Him, but this passage plainly tells us that those who do this do so BECAUSE of the will of God. Now, since it is also likewise clear that not all are saved, apparently there is some distinction in God’s mind regarding the will of God in the sending of the Spirit as far as the salvation of man is concerned.
Another concept that was brought to my attention as I wrestled through these things, is that in John, in many cases, when he speaks of the “world” he is not, as I once thought, speaking of the elect only, nor are those who believe in a universal prevenient grace correct in thinking that John is referring to the population of the entire world, rather, for John, the “world” represents the darkness, that is, its not so much the “bigness” of the world that John is concerned with, rather it’s the “badness”.
Joh 1:10 esv He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.”
Joh 7:7 esv The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.”
Jesus makes sure that His hearers know that not one of them in the world/kosmos keeps the law, they are all lawbreakers, and are thus, from “below”.
Joh 7:19 esv Has not Moses given you the law? Yet none of you keeps the law. Why do you seek to kill me?
Joh 8:23 esv He said to them, You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.”
So for all the cases of Jesus being sent to the “world”, that God so loved the “world”, apparently John does not have in mind “everyone without exception”.
Anyway, I hope this is helpful to you in considering another perspective, that those who believe in God’s sovereignty in election and salvation, do not have to twist or distort Jesus’ words to properly interpret them, indeed, proper interpretation has to recognize the way a given author uses words, and not inject the words of Scripture with their own understanding of what “world” must mean. If we let the Bible explain to us how a given word is used, we are a lot safer and a lot surer in our interpretation.
Blessings,
Ken
Last edited by a moderator:
psalms109:31
Active Member
Peter
I believe Peter is right.
2 Peter 3:
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
I believe Peter is right.
2 Peter 3:
14So then, dear friends, since you are looking forward to this, make every effort to be found spotless, blameless and at peace with him. 15Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
epistemaniac
New Member
Skandelon said:
You said, in particular
At any rate, I have now “dealt with what is written” in the word of God. Strangely, however, I noticed that in your OP, you did not mention the word of God once. So, follow your own advice, you should have quoted chapter and verse and explained why you believe it to be in support of your views in your OP. As you did not, you have no reason to demand of others what you did not do yourself.
Blessings,
Ken
Brother Bob
New Member
Ken;
Let me use the following one in the place of Rev. I agree he was talking to the church but also most of that was during a time of transition from the Law to Grace and I think they had some problems we don’t have to deal with today.
Isaiah, chapter 45
21": Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
"22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
"23": I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Let me use the following one in the place of Rev. I agree he was talking to the church but also most of that was during a time of transition from the Law to Grace and I think they had some problems we don’t have to deal with today.
Isaiah, chapter 45
21": Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
"22": Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
"23": I have sworn by myself, the word is gone out of my mouth in righteousness, and shall not return, That unto me every knee shall bow, every tongue shall swear.
Probably same thing that would happen to all other Pastors/Moderators that no longer believed in the doctrine of the church they were serving, I would no longer be a Pastor in Old Regular Baptist for sure. Fortunately, I have been asked by the United Baptist to come to them and I am sure the Primitive would accept me if I believed as they do for I have many relatives, friends who are Primitive and my first cousin is the Association Moderator of Mates Creek Primitive Baptist Association. I think they would all receive me with much love. I might not be a Pastor/Moderator but I would be an ordained preacher. The reason I put Pastor/Moderator is because in The Old Regular Baptist we are called Moderators. Personally, I find no fault with using Pastor but the ORB frown on it.
Brother Bob
New Member
Ken
You say;
Yet that is the opposite as I understand it to the Scripture that says it is through faith you get to Grace.
Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I don't see where the following Scripture leaves anyone out. Now some believe "light is life" but if that were true then all would be saved according to the following Scripture.
John, chapter 1
"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
You gave me a lot to study Ken but you said I pit Paul against Jesus but I disagree for I don't believe they are speaking a different Gospel. I simply use Jesus to guide me to understand all the other writers in the NT, and if it don't match up then I have it wrong and always refer back to Jesus including Revelation which this method has been a lot of help to me over the years.
Why the question Ken, do you think you are going to win me over?:laugh:
You say;
Yet that is the opposite as I understand it to the Scripture that says it is through faith you get to Grace.
Ephesians, chapter 2
"8": For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
I don't see where the following Scripture leaves anyone out. Now some believe "light is life" but if that were true then all would be saved according to the following Scripture.
John, chapter 1
"9": That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
You gave me a lot to study Ken but you said I pit Paul against Jesus but I disagree for I don't believe they are speaking a different Gospel. I simply use Jesus to guide me to understand all the other writers in the NT, and if it don't match up then I have it wrong and always refer back to Jesus including Revelation which this method has been a lot of help to me over the years.
Why the question Ken, do you think you are going to win me over?:laugh:
Last edited by a moderator:
Brother Bob
New Member
Ken;
I have no problem with your quote concerning raising the dead at all. I never did believe a man could save himself, and I certainly don't believe a man can get up from the dead. What I do believe and "it is a very fine line we walk here", I believe that Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world, it teaches him that he is a sinner and if he dies in that state hell will be his home and that he must repent. I think God chose to make man where he could serve Him or not, so He could get Glory out of him. What Glory would there be in making a man who had to worship him, it just don't make sense to me.
I have no problem with your quote concerning raising the dead at all. I never did believe a man could save himself, and I certainly don't believe a man can get up from the dead. What I do believe and "it is a very fine line we walk here", I believe that Light lighteth every man that cometh into the world, it teaches him that he is a sinner and if he dies in that state hell will be his home and that he must repent. I think God chose to make man where he could serve Him or not, so He could get Glory out of him. What Glory would there be in making a man who had to worship him, it just don't make sense to me.
webdog said:
God does not give you grace because you have faith, that is not what the passage says, you have faith because God had grace on you. Did you skip the part that says and that is not of yourselves it is the gift of God? Faith before grace implies that it was of yourself, grace before faith follows the text.