Agreed. So long as people believe in a future physical return of Christ, they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.
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Premillennium, Amillennium, Postmillennium
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The first part (first 3 1/2 years) of the 7 year Tribulation is not God's wrath. The second part (second 3 1/2 years ) - The Great Tribulation - is God's wrath.
So God still removes the church before The Great Tribulation and does not contradict 2 Thessalonians.
These are classical views of the myriad views held by dispensational bible teachers.
It is a weariness to my flesh to have to re-explain them.
Oops that doesn't sound good, its my own fault for being weary, not enough sleep, too much kofefe.
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Except that which restraines has to be removed first before the antichrist can be revealed. If the antichrist is revealed at year 1 then......
I believe preterism is pure bunk, both full & partial.
Now we know SOME of Jesus' Olivet Discourse has cometa pass, but those events are not part of the current pret doctrine.
I believe the rapture will occur very shortly after the 'beast' comes to power, maybe even before the jews build their new temple in Jerusalem. Thus, most opposition to the "mark of the beast", which I believe will be some sorta microchip, will be gone. Also, the beast will have some explanation as to why millions vanished, which will not include GOD.
However, some will realize what REALLY has happened, & will come to Jesus. These will be the "trib saints", along with the 144K Israelis & the 2 special witnesses. They'll have a tuff row to hoe cuz they can't do regular business without the "mark", & many will be martyred.
But I believe that's the chronological order Scripture shows us for the eschatological events.
Now we know SOME of Jesus' Olivet Discourse has cometa pass, but those events are not part of the current pret doctrine.
I believe the rapture will occur very shortly after the 'beast' comes to power, maybe even before the jews build their new temple in Jerusalem. Thus, most opposition to the "mark of the beast", which I believe will be some sorta microchip, will be gone. Also, the beast will have some explanation as to why millions vanished, which will not include GOD.
However, some will realize what REALLY has happened, & will come to Jesus. These will be the "trib saints", along with the 144K Israelis & the 2 special witnesses. They'll have a tuff row to hoe cuz they can't do regular business without the "mark", & many will be martyred.
But I believe that's the chronological order Scripture shows us for the eschatological events.
Lodic
Well-Known Member
On the other hand, I believe Partial Preterism is the proper interpretation. I believe the "End Times" refers to the end of the Jewish system, which culminated with the destruction of the Temple in AD 70. Of course, I don't believe in the rapture, either.
All of that being said, I do not begrudge those who hold to the Dispensational / Futurist view. Fortunately, while this is a very interesting topic for discussion, our salvation doesn't rest upon it. I'd be happy to engage in a more detailed discussion regarding our different views if you are interested. On the other hand, if you would rather not, no problem. It's not likely that either of us could persuade the other of their views.
How would you see then the first and the second resurrections referring too?
I would see it as not being for Church, but for national Israel to be prepared to meet coming Jesus!
The Church could be protected/preserved during that time by God though!
Many see it starting when the 2 witnesses are resurrected back to heaven!
That eliminate full blown pretierists then!
Partial preterism is as false as full.
Why?
Because Jesus said that IMMEDIATELY after the great trib, there'd be a great cosmological disturbance, during which He will return.
Matt. 24:29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Therefore, if the great trib has occurred, Jesus is long-overdue!
The destruction of J & the temple was a major portion of the "days of vengeance" pronounced against the Jews by Jesus. (Luke 21:22)
Great tribulation like the world has never seen would mean far more than Rome attacking Israel, as we did have 2 world wars since that time!
Lodic
Well-Known Member
A favor, please. am red/green color-blind, so the red text is hard to read. (On the other hand, I know the passage, and I can always highlight it.)
I believe the Dispensationalist view is filled with errors. That is why I left that view about a dozen years ago.
Jesus prophesied that tribulation would come, and it did. This wasn't a worldwide tribulation, but the Jewish War of AD 66-70. Prophets often used "cosmological" language to describe events. That doesn't mean they are to be taken literally. For instance, on the Day of Pentecost, Peter quoted the passage from Joel about the moon turning into blood. Of course, this was figurative language. We see similar language in the prophetic writings in the Old Testament.
Matthew 24:30 is not about the final 2nd coming of Jesus, but of His coming in judgment on Jerusalem.
Things will progressively get worse and worse...
II'll remember not to put Scripture in color when replying to you. If I'd known it was a prob, I wouldn'ta done it at all! My apologies!
And history shows that Scripture & prophecy in it is mostly LITERAL. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was answering His disciples matter-of-factly, and its events that HAVE already cometa pass have done so LITERALLY. Therefore, there's no reason to believe the rest won't occur just-as-literally.
Yes, Jesus prophesied tribulation, saying that it'd be the worst disasters to ever befall mankind, & if it weren't cut short, ALL FLESH(man & animal) would perish. And even the two world wars didn't hit the whole world! And we see in Rev. 16 it'll be mostly a series of natural disasters.
But I believe all current Christians will be "translated" if the eschatological events begin shortly & not be here when the trib hits.
I take it that you're referring to Revelation 20. The first resurrection is the New Birth; the second resurrection is.......er......the resurrection. Compare John 5:25 (1st resurrection) and John 5:28-29 (2nd resurrection).
Dave G
Well-Known Member
Pre-Millennium, post Tribulation, at the last trumpet.
Strictly my reading of Scripture.
See immediately above, with emphasis on Matthew 24 and Mark 13.
So you would see the 1000 years in between as symbolic of a long time between first and second comings?
I am far more sure that Pre Mil is the correct position than on the question of pre/mid/post rapture!
37818
Well-Known Member
I see the tribulation being persecution of believers prior to the outpouring of God's wrath.which takes place after the resurrection and then rapture of believers.
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