Premillennium, Amillennium, Postmillennium

[kyredneck]

Gods wrath its not possible that the church participates in it

Really?:

11 As I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.
12 Take heed, brethren, lest haply there shall be in any one of you an evil heart of unbelief, in falling away from the living God: Heb 3

30 For we know him that said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. Heb 10

4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come forth, my people, out of her, that ye have no fellowship with her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues:
5 for her sins have reached even unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities. Rev 18

 

[Revmitchell]

I see the tribulation being persecution of believers prior to the outpouring of God's wrath.which takes place after the resurrection and then rapture of believers.

Thats ridiculous

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thats ridiculous

So, for my clarification, are you one who holds to a pre-trib rapture?

 

[kyredneck]

I see the tribulation being persecution of believers prior to the outpouring of God's wrath.which takes place after the resurrection and then rapture of believers.

Thats ridiculous

What's ridiculous are all these eschatological views that reject the plain statement from scripture; "the great tribulation" is a long done deal.

21 for then shall be great tribulation, such as hath not been from the beginning of the world until now, no, nor ever shall be.
34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all these things be accomplished. Mt 24

19 For those days shall be tribulation, such as there hath not been the like from the beginning of the creation which God created until now, and never shall be.
30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mk 13

22 For these are days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23 Woe unto them that are with child and to them that give suck in those days! for there shall be great distress upon the land, and wrath unto this people.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all things be accomplished. Lu 21

 

[Lodic]

II'll remember not to put Scripture in color when replying to you. If I'd known it was a prob, I wouldn'ta done it at all! My apologies!

And history shows that Scripture & prophecy in it is mostly LITERAL. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was answering His disciples matter-of-factly, and its events that HAVE already cometa pass have done so LITERALLY. Therefore, there's no reason to believe the rest won't occur just-as-literally.

Yes, Jesus prophesied tribulation, saying that it'd be the worst disasters to ever befall mankind, & if it weren't cut short, ALL FLESH(man & animal) would perish. And even the two world wars didn't hit the whole world! And we see in Rev. 16 it'll be mostly a series of natural disasters.

But I believe all current Christians will be "translated" if the eschatological events begin shortly & not be here when the trib hits.

I appreciate your consideration for my color-blind issues. I'm really looking forward to all the colors I will see in Heaven.

I agree that the Old Testament prophecies certainly came to pass in the literal sense. We seem to be in agreement regarding part of the Olivet Discourse, as He was describing the destruction of the Temple and of Jerusalem. Where we disagree is that I don't think He switched from talking about AD 70 to 2,000 years in the future. Also, a lot of prophecies do use symbolic language.

I don't think things are any worse now than they have ever been. Certainly the 1st Century Christians suffered a lot more under Nero than most of us will ever suffer.

Time for me to get to work. I just wanted to touch base with you this morning. I'll get back on during my lunch break.

 

[37818]

Thats ridiculous

Just saying that does not make it so.
1 Thessalonians 4:15 teaches that in no way will the rapture take place untill the dead in Christ are rased. Jesus said that would be in what He called the last day (John 6:4o). Christ's second coming is called the second appearing (Hebrews 9:28).

So please explain your thinking on this.

 

[Covenanter]

Unless there are other, major, doctrinal differences, Christians should not reject fellowship over eschatology.

Agreed. So long as people believe in a future physical return of Christ, they are my brothers and sisters in Christ.

The great divide for evangelicals is the status of the nation of Israel. The (my) partial preterist amil position is that God's dealings with national Israel ended with the end of the 70 weeks in the 30s. Many thousands of Israel had by then believed the Gospel & formed the church. The Jewish leadership & those of that generation who rejected the Gospel perished in the AD 70 destruction.

Through the following 2,000 years the Gospel has been open to the Jews. Those who have received Jesus as Lord, God & Saviour have generally been rejected by their community & united with other Christians regardless of race, so a continuing identity of "Christian Jews" has not been apparent.

There is no possibility of a holy God holding wrath against 100 generations of his people for the rejection of Christ & his Apostolic Gospel when his judgment was against "this generation" & those born to them who continued to reject the Gospel. According to the commandments his wrath is limited to the 3rd & 4th generations.

People of all religions, including Jews & Christians, should be free to worship according to their religion wherever they live, & whatever the dominant religion of the region. However that doesn't apply in the teaching of Christian Zionists with respect to the nation of Israel.

The Zionist teaching that the land promised to Abraham belongs to the Jews, that Jews should return to the homeland, & have the divine right to displace the Palestinians, taking homes, land, resources & lives, totally violates the Gospel. There can be no Gospel fellowship with those who hold such teaching. .

If the claim is that Old Covenant promises are being fulfilled then the Old Covenant call for justice & mercy also stands -

Micah 6:8 8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.​

 

[Lodic]

II'll remember not to put Scripture in color when replying to you. If I'd known it was a prob, I wouldn'ta done it at all! My apologies!

And history shows that Scripture & prophecy in it is mostly LITERAL. In the Olivet Discourse, Jesus was answering His disciples matter-of-factly, and its events that HAVE already cometa pass have done so LITERALLY. Therefore, there's no reason to believe the rest won't occur just-as-literally.

Yes, Jesus prophesied tribulation, saying that it'd be the worst disasters to ever befall mankind, & if it weren't cut short, ALL FLESH(man & animal) would perish. And even the two world wars didn't hit the whole world! And we see in Rev. 16 it'll be mostly a series of natural disasters.

But I believe all current Christians will be "translated" if the eschatological events begin shortly & not be here when the trib hits.

I meant to reply earlier, but the best laid plans of mice and men...
One of the main reasons I changed to the Partial Preterist view was a different view of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21). For our discussion, I'll stick with Matthew 24. In verse 3, the asked Jesus about the sign of His coming and of the end of the Age. This is one question, not two. Jesus answered with the prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. He spoke of "wars and rumors of wars", which came to pass. He said that the gospel would be preached in the "whole world" - which came to pass. "Whole world" is the same term we find in Luke 2:1, where a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census be taken of "the inhabited earth". The term is used of the Roman Empire - not the literal world.
In Mat. 24:16, Jesus warns His listeners to "flee to the mountains" when the events He has described come to pass. History records that the Christians fled to the mountains of Pella. It would not be possible to escape a worldwide tribulation in the sense of the "futurist" belief.
While verse 21 speaks of "great tribulation", it doesn't say "THE Great Tribulation". As you know, they did go through great tribulation.
Here is my final point. Jesus keeps using saying "when you see" - indicating His immediate audience, not people 2,000 years in His future. Likewise, He says "this generation" (vs. 34), meaning the generation He is speaking to.
I know I went on quite a bit, and I do apologize. At any point, feel free to "agree to disagree". I'm not here to change your mind; just wanted to show you how I view things.

 

[Yeshua1]

The great divide for evangelicals is the status of the nation of Israel. The (my) partial preterist amil position is that God's dealings with national Israel ended with the end of the 70 weeks in the 30s. Many thousands of Israel had by then believed the Gospel & formed the church. The Jewish leadership & those of that generation who rejected the Gospel perished in the AD 70 destruction.

Through the following 2,000 years the Gospel has been open to the Jews. Those who have received Jesus as Lord, God & Saviour have generally been rejected by their community & united with other Christians regardless of race, so a continuing identity of "Christian Jews" has not been apparent.

There is no possibility of a holy God holding wrath against 100 generations of his people for the rejection of Christ & his Apostolic Gospel when his judgment was against "this generation" & those born to them who continued to reject the Gospel. According to the commandments his wrath is limited to the 3rd & 4th generations.

People of all religions, including Jews & Christians, should be free to worship according to their religion wherever they live, & whatever the dominant religion of the region. However that doesn't apply in the teaching of Christian Zionists with respect to the nation of Israel.

The Zionist teaching that the land promised to Abraham belongs to the Jews, that Jews should return to the homeland, & have the divine right to displace the Palestinians, taking homes, land, resources & lives, totally violates the Gospel. There can be no Gospel fellowship with those who hold such teaching. .

If the claim is that Old Covenant promises are being fulfilled then the Old Covenant call for justice & mercy also stands -

Micah 6:8 8 He has shown you, O mortal, what is good.
And what does the Lord require of you?
To act justly and to love mercy
and to walk humbly with your God.​

National Israel shall be reborn unto God at the Second Coming of Jesus, but until then., all jews must come to God just as we gentiles do!

 

[Yeshua1]

I meant to reply earlier, but the best laid plans of mice and men...
One of the main reasons I changed to the Partial Preterist view was a different view of the Olivet Discourse (Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21). For our discussion, I'll stick with Matthew 24. In verse 3, the asked Jesus about the sign of His coming and of the end of the Age. This is one question, not two. Jesus answered with the prophesy of the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. He spoke of "wars and rumors of wars", which came to pass. He said that the gospel would be preached in the "whole world" - which came to pass. "Whole world" is the same term we find in Luke 2:1, where a decree went out from Caesar Augustus that a census be taken of "the inhabited earth". The term is used of the Roman Empire - not the literal world.
In Mat. 24:16, Jesus warns His listeners to "flee to the mountains" when the events He has described come to pass. History records that the Christians fled to the mountains of Pella. It would not be possible to escape a worldwide tribulation in the sense of the "futurist" belief.
While verse 21 speaks of "great tribulation", it doesn't say "THE Great Tribulation". As you know, they did go through great tribulation.
Here is my final point. Jesus keeps using saying "when you see" - indicating His immediate audience, not people 2,000 years in His future. Likewise, He says "this generation" (vs. 34), meaning the generation He is speaking to.
I know I went on quite a bit, and I do apologize. At any point, feel free to "agree to disagree". I'm not here to change your mind; just wanted to show you how I view things.

Can also mean the generation alive when those events at the time of the Great tribulation are starting to take place, the second coming is nigh!

 

[Lodic]

Can also mean the generation alive when those events at the time of the Great tribulation are starting to take place, the second coming is nigh!

I'll concede that it could, but wouldn't Jesus have said "that generation"? Also, He says "when you see", not "when they see".

 

[Yeshua1]

I'll concede that it could, but wouldn't Jesus have said "that generation"? Also, He says "when you see", not "when they see".

I am also very sure though that the Great tribulation was not what happened AD 70!

 

[Lodic]

I am also very sure though that the Great tribulation was not what happened AD 70!

Jesus spoke of "great tribulation", but not of "the Great tribulation". I use this in the same sense that 1 John 4 and 2 John 1 use the term "antichrist", but "futurists" maintain that "the Antichrist" is coming. But I digress. The Jewish War of 66-70 was indeed "great tribulation". I believe that the tribulation Jesus spoke of was localized for Jerusalem, not for the whole world. A lot of people maintain that the world is getting worse, but I would suggest that it's pretty much the same as it's always been. Certainly, Christians are not being hunted down and executed as they were in the first century.

 

[Yeshua1]

Jesus spoke of "great tribulation", but not of "the Great tribulation". I use this in the same sense that 1 John 4 and 2 John 1 use the term "antichrist", but "futurists" maintain that "the Antichrist" is coming. But I digress. The Jewish War of 66-70 was indeed "great tribulation". I believe that the tribulation Jesus spoke of was localized for Jerusalem, not for the whole world. A lot of people maintain that the world is getting worse, but I would suggest that it's pretty much the same as it's always been. Certainly, Christians are not being hunted down and executed as they were in the first century.

Actually more Christians have died in past 100 years combined than prior 1900 years!

 

[Lodic]

Actually more Christians have died in past 100 years combined than prior 1900 years!

True enough, but would you describe the killings of the past 100 years as "the Great Tribulation"? The tribulation that Jesus spoke of was of a specific time and place.

 

[Yeshua1]

True enough, but would you describe the killings of the past 100 years as "the Great Tribulation"? The tribulation that Jesus spoke of was of a specific time and place.

I was just using that to say that if there have been so many killed for cause of Christ since AD 70, that cannot be the Great tribulation event jesus spoke about!

 

[Lodic]

I was just using that to say that if there have been so many killed for cause of Christ since AD 70, that cannot be the Great tribulation event jesus spoke about!

This was a great tribulation for the Christians in Jerusalem, not for the whole world. I don't believe there will ever be a worldwide "Great Tribulation". Unfortunately, I'm sure you agree that we will see far too many martyred until Christ does return.

 

[John of Japan]

Not necessarily, no reference to the tribulation point in time is made.

I can't imagine God putting the church, the body and bride of Christ, for which He died, through judgment. If we men are to love our wives as Christ loved the church, surely that means we would never subject our wives to torture if it means anything at all! So how could Christ put His church through the Tribulation???

I think krima, judgment, in 1 Peter 4 simply means discernment in that context.

 

[37818]

I can't imagine God putting the church, the body and bride of Christ, for which He died, through judgment. If we men are to love our wives as Christ loved the church, surely that means we would never subject our wives to torture if it means anything at all! So how could Christ put His church through the Tribulation???

I think krima, judgment, in 1 Peter 4 simply means discernment in that context.

The tribulation not being the wrath of God, but persecution of God's elect.

 

[Yeshua1]

I can't imagine God putting the church, the body and bride of Christ, for which He died, through judgment. If we men are to love our wives as Christ loved the church, surely that means we would never subject our wives to torture if it means anything at all! So how could Christ put His church through the Tribulation???

I think krima, judgment, in 1 Peter 4 simply means discernment in that context.

Could God though not shield us from that wrath, like Israel protected from plagues?