Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[convicted1]

Not of "this fold".

He is not saying "I only love some people -- not really the world so don't go around with that - God so loved the WORLD message".

"I will draw ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32 because "God so loved the WORLD -- yes really". In calvinism it all adds up to a false over-stated marketing campaign.

I prefer to think it is true rather than over-marketing.

in Christ,

Bob

God loves the world, yes. Never stated otherwise. God loves everyone w/o exception. No..

Jesus had distain for the Pharisees, Saducees, chief priests, &c...

 

[convicted1]

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The sheep constitute those who have believed on his name. The Lord knew who they would be because of his omniscience. He did not randomly select some to heaven and others to hell--what Calvin teaches. Those that believe are those that are his sheep. All are given that freedom either to receive or reject Christ.
Yes, God's sovereignty is that great. He is not limited to the small view of Calvinism but is great enough to give to man within his own sovereignty the freedom to choose good or bad, for man is made in the image of God.

The sheep were those He chose from the foundation of the world. Sheep are sheep because He chose them beforehand...they did not become sheep when they believed...

 

[steaver]

The sheep were those He chose from the foundation of the world. Sheep are sheep because He chose them beforehand...they did not become sheep when they believed...

Really? So one can be a sheep and still be in unbelief, refusing the Gospel, even hating God? For we know thousands of cases of people rejecting the Gospel for years upon years, hating it, hating the name of Jesus Christ, and then later in life embracing and loving Jesus Christ. So these are sheep, even though they hate Jesus?? You do not see how in your attempt to defend the error of Calvinism, you have to resort to twisting the Scriptures into ridiculous applications? Actually, in your interpretations of Scripture, one could be a sheep, die hating the Gospel, and find themselves alive again in heaven with Jesus.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The sheep constitute those who have believed on his name.
The Lord knew who they would be because of his omniscience.

You deny all manner of scripture here to the point of unbelief.

He did not randomly select some to heaven and others to hell

God does nothing random. He has an eternal purpose. He has elected All who will ever be saved. It is clearer than ever here that you have no idea what you are talking about.

--what Calvin teaches

.

it is what scripture teaches

Those that believe are those that are his sheep.

they believe because they are his sheep

All are given that freedom either to receive or reject Christ

.

It is not for you to decide .God has already done that.

Your hatred for truth has sent you over the edge.

.

 

[Iconoclast]

steaver

Really? So one can be a sheep and still be in unbelief, refusing the Gospel, even hating God?

That is why they are called lost sheep Steaver....really. Jesus came to seek and to save that which is lost....the elect sheep:wavey:

For we know thousands of cases of people rejecting the Gospel for years upon years, hating it, hating the name of Jesus Christ, and then later in life embracing and loving Jesus Christ. So these are sheep, even though they hate Jesus??

Yes Steaver. If you would read the bible you can see it also.Paul said:


11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

15 This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

16 Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting.

Paul was a sheep and this is his testimony...lost, then found.

You do not see how in your attempt to defend the error of Calvinism, you have to resort to twisting the Scriptures into ridiculous applications? Actually, in your interpretations of Scripture, one could be a sheep, die hating the Gospel, and find themselves alive again in heaven with Jesus.

The only twisting is by you steaver.

 

[DHK]

The sheep were those He chose from the foundation of the world. Sheep are sheep because He chose them beforehand...they did not become sheep when they believed...

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Joh 10:11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

Joh 10:14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

Joh 10:26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
--Note: The sheep are the ones that believe. He makes that differentiation here.

Joh 10:27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:
Joh 10:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Joh 10:29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.
--Note all the privileges of the sheep. These are the same privileges that are given "to them that believe on his name." That is no coincidence.

Joh 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Joh 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.
--Those that do not believe are not among his sheep; those that do believe are his sheep.

Sometimes there are pretenders. They try to get in some other way. But there is only one way.
Joh 10:1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.
--That way is through Christ--through faith in his shed blood. There is no other way. Christ is the door. One must actively enter, by faith, through that door. He is not elected to go through that door. He must by faith enter the door. He chooses whether or not to go through that door.

Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.
(Joh 10:7-9)
--The question is: Have you entered in, or are you depending somehow on your "election"?

 

[Rippon]

The Lord knew who they would be because of his omniscience.

No, He chose them because it was His will to do so.

He did not randomly select some to heaven and others to hell--what Calvin teaches.

That is a big fat lie you and others of a dishonest mindset often claim. But it is indeed a lie. No Calvinist on this board or off it has ever said such an absurd and sinful thing (least of all John Calvin himself).

You need to deal truthfully DHK. Your testimony is at stake.

 

[convicted1]

No, He chose them because it was His will to do so.


That is a big fat lie you and others of a dishonest mindset often claim. But it is indeed a lie. No Calvinist on this board or off it has ever said such an absurd and sinful thing (least of all John Calvin himself).

You need to deal truthfully DHK. Your testimony is at stake.

All were headed to hell w/o Him chosing a multitude to give to His Son to redeem. He did no injustice to those He did not choose...

 

[DHK]

DHK

You deny all manner of scripture here to the point of unbelief.

"The Lord knows them that are his."
--OR, That is Scripture, not a denial of Scripture.
God is omniscient. That is one of the main attributes of God. I would think you would know that by now.

God does nothing random. He has an eternal purpose. He has elected All who will ever be saved. It is clearer than ever here that you have no idea what you are talking about.

God does nothing randomly. Right. Then read Calvinism more carefully. I am not the one who believes it.
Calvinism is a mixed up theology insisting that fore-ordination must of a necessity cause things to pass. That is not so. God in omniscience knows what will come to pass because indeed he does know all things.
David testified to that:
For there is not a word in my tongue, but, lo, O LORD, thou knowest it altogether. Thou hast beset me behind and before, and laid thine hand upon me. Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it.
(Psa 139:4-6)
--Notice the facts.
David testified that God knew all his thoughts. The phrase is all encompassing. He knew them all and altogether. He knew everything that there was to know about David: his thoughts, words, imaginations, what he was about to think, what he had just thought--absolutely everything.
And David exclaimed:
"Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; it is high, I cannot attain unto it."
--God knew David's thoughts before the foundation of the world.
He did not elect those thoughts, foreordain them, predestinate them, etc.
He is omniscient. He simply knew what his thoughts were going to be at that exact time in history.
He knows what words you will post in your very next post. He didn't elect you, choose you, force you in any way, predestinate you, or foreordain you to type what you are going to post. Whatever it is you will do it of your own free will. God knows simply of his own omniscience.
Omniscience does not cause the outcome. It just knows what the outcome will be.
In the same way God allows each of us to choose him. He knows the outcome. He doesn't force it. He doesn't cause it. He knows what it will be. It is still our choice. Human will is what makes us different from the animal world. We can reason, think things out, have the ability to choose, etc. We are made in the image of God. God gave us that ability.

it is what scripture teaches

Scripture does not teach Calvinism. Calvin teaches Calvinism.

they believe because they are his sheep

God is omniscient. He knows what a person will choose before they choose.

It is not for you to decide .God has already done that.

I don't decide anything. But you have put your faith in Calvin.
Are the decisions in the Bible up to Calvin and his theology??
No, certainly not.

Your hatred for truth has sent you over the edge..

And for refusing to believe in Calvinism does not make me insane.
I don't believe you should resort to such innuendos and derogatory language. That is the language of a "Carnal Christian."

 

[DHK]

No, He chose them because it was His will to do so.


That is a big fat lie you and others of a dishonest mindset often claim. But it is indeed a lie. No Calvinist on this board or off it has ever said such an absurd and sinful thing (least of all John Calvin himself).

You need to deal truthfully DHK. Your testimony is at stake.

From Boettner who carries on in the spirit of Calvin:

The doctrine of absolute Predestination of course logically holds that some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life. The very terms "elect" and "election" imply the terms "non-elect" and "reprobation." When some are chosen out others are left not chosen. The high privileges and glorious destiny of the former are not shared with the latter. This, too, is of God. We believe that from all eternity God has intended to leave some of Adam's posterity in their sins, and that the decisive factor in the life of each is to be found only in God's will. As Mozley has said, the whole race after the fall was "one mass of perdition," and "it pleased God of His sovereign mercy to rescue some and to leave others where they were; to raise some to glory, giving them such grace as necessarily qualified them for it, and abandon the rest, from whom He withheld such grace, to eternal punishments."

No rhyme or reason given here. He just randomly selects some for heaven and randomly selects others for hell. It is a cruel God that is being described, one devoid of love. He is not the God of the Bible.

 

[Rippon]

From Boettner who carries on in the spirit of Calvin:

No rhyme or reason given here. He just randomly selects some for heaven and randomly selects others for hell. It is a cruel God that is being described, one devoid of love. He is not the God of the Bible.

Your Boettner quote did not support your absolutely false charge.

God does nothing at random. No Calvinist has ever said such a sinful thing --only you.

You are devoid of truth when dealing with Calvinism and Calvinists. You need to examine yourself and leave your old ways behind.

 

[DHK]

Your Boettner quote did not support your absolutely false charge.

God does nothing at random. No Calvinist has ever said such a sinful thing --only you.

You are devoid of truth when dealing with Calvinism and Calvinists. You need to examine yourself and leave your old ways behind.

Whether I use the adjective "random" or the adjective "select" does it make any difference? The end result is the same.
God, before the foundation of the world, selected some for an eternity in heaven, and others for an eternity in the Lake of Fire. Even if they have the chance to hear and believe the gospel they are still damned. It is a horrible doctrine. Randomly chosen or selectively chosen, it makes no difference--they are chosen for an eternity in Hell, and there is nothing they can do about it.

 

[DHK]

All were headed to hell w/o Him chosing a multitude to give to His Son to redeem. He did no injustice to those He did not choose...

You are half right. We are all headed to hell, and deservedly so.
Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole, entire world of all ages.
That whosoever believes on him shall have eternal life.
Those who believe on him make up the elect.
God in his omniscience knows those that both have and will believe on him.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Whether I use the adjective "random" or the adjective "select" does it make any difference? The end result is the same.
God, before the foundation of the world, selected some for an eternity in heaven

It makes a difference to those who know the truth

God, before the foundation of the world, selected some for an eternity in heaven,

Does this bother you DHK????

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.



Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began,10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

and others for an eternity in the Lake of Fire. Even if they have the chance to hear and believe the gospel they are still damned. It is a horrible doctrine.

The fall into sin and death was horrible. Your root objection is to find fault with God .

 

[Iconoclast]

You are half right. We are all headed to hell, and deservedly so.
Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole, entire world of all ages.
That whosoever believes on him shall have eternal life.
Those who believe on him make up the elect.
God in his omniscience knows those that both have and will believe on him.

The God you describe is only a spectator....an observer who must learn who will believe then elect the dead sinner who brings himself to life....then elect him????..............ugh....no!

 

[DHK]

The God you describe is only a spectator....an observer who must learn who will believe then elect the dead sinner who brings himself to life....then elect him????..............ugh....no!

God is a God of love, ever reaching out and pleading to his creatures to come to him. He didn't damn them before the creation of the world. His invitation is always open. He says "come unto me..."
You describe God as the Great Puppeteer, and each of us his puppets, forced to do his will.

 

[OldRegular]

Whether I use the adjective "random" or the adjective "select" does it make any difference? The end result is the same.
God, before the foundation of the world, selected some for an eternity in heaven, and others for an eternity in the Lake of Fire. Even if they have the chance to hear and believe the gospel they are still damned. It is a horrible doctrine. Randomly chosen or selectively chosen, it makes no difference--they are chosen for an eternity in Hell, and there is nothing they can do about it.

Be thankful for Election otherwise no one, including you, would be saved!

 

[OldRegular]

God is a God of love, ever reaching out and pleading to his creatures to come to him. He didn't damn them before the creation of the world. His invitation is always open. He says "come unto me..."
You describe God as the Great Puppeteer, and each of us his puppets, forced to do his will.

Assume you are correct DHK. Tell all of us why you believe while many others do not. Were you better than they, less guilty of sin being raised Roman Catholic? What was it about you that made you a believer while others do not?

 

[OldRegular]

You are half right. We are all headed to hell, and deservedly so.
Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole, entire world of all ages.
That whosoever believes on him shall have eternal life.
Those who believe on him make up the elect.
God in his omniscience knows those that both have and will believe on him.

If God knows those who will believe in Jesus Christ then "those who" are constrained to believe in Jesus Christ are they not? Otherwise God would know something to be true that was not true, an impossibility!

 

[convicted1]

You are half right. We are all headed to hell, and deservedly so.
Christ paid the penalty for our sins, and not for ours only but for the sins of the whole, entire world of all ages.
That whosoever believes on him shall have eternal life.
Those who believe on him make up the elect.
God in his omniscience knows those that both have and will believe on him.

Elect mean chosen. In your view, God chooses them that choose Him. That's foreign to scripture. He chose us in Christ from the foundation of the world. He didn't choose/elect us, after we choose Him, period...