Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[Iconoclast]

For SBM's statement to be true, we must assume that everyone Jesus preached to was of the elect. Everyone. Every. One. That there were NO unsaved in the crowd. None. Everyone in the crowd was already righteous and of the elect, because SBM has shown time and again that he believes the elect are saved before birth.

IF I were a calvinist, I'd be embarrassed that someone professing to be a fellow calvinist was putting forth such justifications on behalf of the rest of us.

I would have, instead, admitted that yes, there were un-elect in the crowd; but because of their unregenerate state, the Word was of no value to them.

So yes, I'd admit that Jesus commanded all men to repent; but, if I were a calvinist, I'd follow up with "but only the elect will obey." Not this inanity that implies *everyone* at Mars Hill was saved.

Don,

SBM is not the spokesmen for all things Calvinist. Sometimes a person can be on the right track so to speak, but if they are not teachable or accountable to others....how will they receive correction?

The fact that many who would claim to be non cals, are zeroing in on the inconsistencies is a good thing. At least it shows some grasp of the Cal teaching:thumbsup::wavey::thumbsup:

 

[OldRegular]

This is your problem, the absurdity of Calvinistic thought that makes out God to be a cruel monster commanding the unsaved to repent after they have heard the gospel--to do that which they cannot do, and then sending them to Hell for all eternity because they don't have the ability to do what he commanded them to do. Absurd! Horrible! This is your doctrine.

It is not what the Bible teaches. It is not the love of God.

What about the Darby-pre-trib-dispensationalism teaching that God is going to take the "parenthesis" church out of the world so he can pour out His wrath on those left behind for seven long years.

 

[DHK]

Does God save everyone?

Does God save those who have never heard the Gospel?

What about all those people who lived before the time of Jesus Christ; were they all sentenced to hell since only the descendants of Abraham were given the "oracles of God"?

Before you start making God, who saved one like you, into a cruel monster you should think a little!

OR, you should follow the discussion a little more carefully.
The context is within Acts 17--Paul preaching on Mars' Hill. I already posted the Scriptures here. Paul was preaching to unsaved pagan Athenians idolaters, who were also philosophers--Epicureans and Stoics. They were the ones that invited him to speak. They wanted to hear what he had to say. They were idolaters and unsaved. Just read the text. It is very clear.

SBM's words:

Where does it say that God was commanding the unsaved to repent ?

Who said eveyone present at mars Hill was unsaved ?

There was a great crowd at Mars' Hill. Perhaps Paul may have some that accompanied him present. But the crowd that he was preaching to were all unsaved. That is the reason he was preaching the gospel to them. The gospel is preached to the unsaved, and he was preaching to the unsaved Athenians.

Where does it say that God commanded the unsaved to repent?
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--This is where it says God commands the unsaved to repent,
and this is what SBM denies.

Now that you have this context, I will answer some of your questions.
1. Does God save everyone?
--No. He saves those who trust him, and accept His free gift of salvation; his payment for their sins which he paid on the cross.

2.Does God save those who have never heard the Gospel?
--He has promised a way that every person who wants to be saved can be saved. Part of that responsibility is on those of us who do believe in carrying out the Great Commission.

3. What about all those people who lived before the time of Jesus Christ; were they all sentenced to hell since only the descendants of Abraham were given the "oracles of God"?
--We are all commanded to believe. They will be judged as Abraham was judged. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. He was justified. All OT people will be judged the same way, according to the light they were given.

Before you start making God, who saved one like you, into a cruel monster you should think a little!

You think!! I don't answer lightly. I have thought through these things very carefully.

 

[DHK]

What about the Darby-pre-trib-dispensationalism teaching that God is going to take the "parenthesis" church out of the world so he can pour out His wrath on those left behind for seven long years.

Who is this Darby? I have never met him, never read his works? I don't know.
Parenthesis church? The only one that I have heard use that term is you. And when you have accused me of believing in it, I have denied any such accusation. So I don't know what you are talking about.

BTW, Scofield's system of dispensationalism followed Isaac Watts, not those that you think.

Isaac Watts (1674-1748), who was really the precursor to Scofield's
system of dispensationalism. Watts' identification of dispensationalism was more
defined. His outline closely resembles Scofield's, with the exception of the Millennial
Kingdom. Watts included six separate dispensations,

http://www.scribd.com/doc/11248105/The-Real-History-of-Dispensationalism#scribd

But that is not the topic of this thread. Let's not derail it.

 

[DHK]

This is your problem, the absurdity of Calvinistic thought that makes out God to be a cruel monster commanding the unsaved to repent after they have heard the gospel--to do that which they cannot do, and then sending them to Hell for all eternity because they don't have the ability to do what he commanded them to do. Absurd! Horrible! This is your doctrine.

It is not what the Bible teaches. It is not the love of God.

Sorry you feel the God we worship is cruel or a monster.

I don't. That is what Calvinism teaches as it withholds free will from the non-elect even after they have the opportunity to hear and believe the gospel. Calvinism says they don't have the choice to believe. They must go to hell anyway! Horrible.

I can truthfully say to any person: God is a God of love. There is no one that God loves any more than you. It doesn't matter if the person I am witnessing to elect or not. It is a true statement. God loves us with an everlasting love. He stretches out his arms all the day long pleading for us to come to him. That is not wrath; it is love. Calvinism rejects this. It creates a monster instead dooming a certain percentage of mankind to eternal damnation before the world is ever created.

Perhaps you need to take a sabbatical and do some more careful study and get your mind right.

I have been doing a lot of careful study. I can assure you that I am in my right mind.

The saints in heaven love and worship God for His righteous judgments on the wicked. If you cannot do the same are you sure you have it figured out???

Of course they do. Heaven is a wonderful place. The Bible does not teach "predestined to hell." And the angels don't have to even think about that treacherous doctrine--reprobation.

I see no one in this heavenly scene saying God is a cruel monster....no.. they understand that he reigns from heaven

I agree. He is not. But Calvinism makes him one. Therefore if you believe in heaven and God as such you should turn away from Calvinism which teaches a cruel God.

if it was the great tribulation as you had suggested, it would prove Jesus reigns as King right now}
but that was just an aside as it was not the tribulation that you suggested anyhow.

It is not the tribulation. The tribulation is God's wrath and judgment being poured out on those that have deliberately rejected him, by their own will and volition. It is against the antichrist, the false prophet and their followers.
It is not against those who hear the gospel and are not permitted to believe the gospel by the very hand of God. That is a cruel God. That is the way that Calvin's theology of reprobabtion describes God.

the point is those in heaven are okay with God's judging those who hate him.

Those in heaven are okay with God's fair justice, not God's "monstrous view of reprobation" that Calvin sets forth. Apples and oranges.

19 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great.

6 And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.

Wonderful scriptures, all in their context. But that has nothing to do with Calvin's doctrines of predestination, election, and reprobation, all of which make God cruel and heartless.
God is a God of love. Calvinism has taken the love out of God.

In all of the Reformed creeds in which the doctrine of Reprobation is dealt with at all it is treated as an essential part of the doctrine of Predestination. The Westminster Confession, after stating the doctrine of election, adds: "The rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the inscrutable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html

You may hold this in high esteem. I don't hold it as even being biblical.

 

[savedbymercy]

The Gospel is hid to them that are lost, and permanently hid, they are perishing 2 Cor 4:3-4 !

 

[savedbymercy]

OR, you should follow the discussion a little more carefully.
The context is within Acts 17--Paul preaching on Mars' Hill. I already posted the Scriptures here. Paul was preaching to unsaved pagan Athenians idolaters, who were also philosophers--Epicureans and Stoics. They were the ones that invited him to speak. They wanted to hear what he had to say. They were idolaters and unsaved. Just read the text. It is very clear.

SBM's words:

There was a great crowd at Mars' Hill. Perhaps Paul may have some that accompanied him present. But the crowd that he was preaching to were all unsaved. That is the reason he was preaching the gospel to them. The gospel is preached to the unsaved, and he was preaching to the unsaved Athenians.

Where does it say that God commanded the unsaved to repent?
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--This is where it says God commands the unsaved to repent,
and this is what SBM denies.

Now that you have this context, I will answer some of your questions.
1. Does God save everyone?
--No. He saves those who trust him, and accept His free gift of salvation; his payment for their sins which he paid on the cross.

2.Does God save those who have never heard the Gospel?
--He has promised a way that every person who wants to be saved can be saved. Part of that responsibility is on those of us who do believe in carrying out the Great Commission.

3. What about all those people who lived before the time of Jesus Christ; were they all sentenced to hell since only the descendants of Abraham were given the "oracles of God"?
--We are all commanded to believe. They will be judged as Abraham was judged. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. He was justified. All OT people will be judged the same way, according to the light they were given.

You think!! I don't answer lightly. I have thought through these things very carefully.

A bunch of invalid comments ! The unsaved cannot believe, please God, cannot repent, neither does God command them to believe or repent, for He made them vessels of wrath and fits them for destruction and they fit themselves for destruction !

 

[convicted1]

Context:
What will this babbler say?
Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

19 And they took him, and brought him unto Areopagus, saying, May we know what this new doctrine, whereof thou speakest, is?

20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.

21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)


This is your problem, the absurdity of Calvinistic thought that makes out God to be a cruel monster commanding the unsaved to repent after they have heard the gospel--to do that which they cannot do, and then sending them to Hell for all eternity because they don't have the ability to do what he commanded them to do. Absurd! Horrible! This is your doctrine.

It is not what the Bible teaches. It is not the love of God.

Okay, I am glad you chose Acts 17, so I will attempt to show you where and how you're wrong, imo...


First, let's set the backdrop of what type of environment Paul was stepping into at Athens...I will use the YLT....


16 and Paul waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, beholding the city wholly given to idolatry,

This is the type of environment one should expect when stuck in paganism. Shoot, look at what happened when Moses was on Mount Sinai. They made a golden calf to worship. People who know not God will create a god to worship. Look at all the OT gods that were mentioned. Even the native american indian believed in a 'happy hunting ground' for them when they died, and they left the hearts of the animals they killed so that their spirits would roam the forest.

21 and all Athenians, and the strangers sojourning, for nothing else were at leisure but to say something, and to hear some newer thing.

All they were were a bunch of busybodies and seeking worldly knowledge. If someone would have came along and was promoting Islam, they would have wanted to hear about it. Same as with mormonism, buddhism, &c.


23 for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you.


Now, they had so may gods they worshipped and even had a altar dedicated unto the 'unknown god'. They had no idea, no clue, into who to worship. This is why God sent Paul there...He had sheep there to bring into the fold.


24 God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell, 25 neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;


Here Paul is telling them that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. He is rebuking them for their gods they have strung all over the place.


30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, 31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'


Why did God command all men everywhere to repent/reform? Because of the day when Christ will judge the world in righteousness. Now, God commanded all of Isarel to keep the Law, and if they broke it, they died. God knew full well they couldn't, commanded them to keep it, and punished them accordingly. We are even told to "be ye holy even as I am holy", yet can we meet those standards? Absolutely not. The only way is through Christ.


Now, here is why God sent Paul to Athens....


32 And having heard of a rising again of the dead, some, indeed, were mocking, but others said, `We will hear thee again concerning this; 33 and so Paul went forth from the midst of them, 34 and certain men having cleaved to him, did believe, among whom [is] also Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman, by name Damaris, and others with them.


You can see that the gospel will never go 'response-less', because it will alway elicit a repsonse, whether in a positive or negative manner. Some mocked Paul and some desired to hear more. That is the way the gospel works. Some receive it, some reject it.

 

[PreachTony]

If there was no sin in them, what was it in Eve that enticed her to disobedience at the tempting of the serpent ? At her temptation sin that was in her already was manifested ! Adam and Eve had no love for God in their hearts when they were created, so they were sinful from the start !

I'm surprised this one slipped through the cracks.
So Adam and Eve were sinful and had no love for God from the very beginning. Yet when God created them...well, read it for yourself...

26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.
30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.
31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day.

So God created two beings that were sinful and had no love for Him, and yet He still called it "very good." That's not the theology I'm accustomed to. I remember many verses showing how God frowns upon sin, hates it. Yet for your statement to be true: for Adam and Eve to be sinful from the start, it means God had to have created sin in them, and then God called it very good. It's laying a shaking foundation for doctrine from the first chapter of the book.

 

[savedbymercy]

don

For SBM's statement to be true, we must assume that everyone Jesus preached to was of the elect. Everyone. Every. One.

Thats your assumption, and not my comment ! When Jesus preached the word of the Gospel fell upon different types of soils, and only one type soil received the word of God, understood it, and bare fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I believe the good ground represents the saved/Elect ! However the rest of the grounds represent the various conditions of the unsaved !

 

[Don]

don



Thats your assumption, and not my comment ! When Jesus preached the word of the Gospel fell upon different types of soils, and only one type soil received the word of God, understood it, and bare fruit Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

I believe the good ground represents the saved/Elect ! However the rest of the grounds represent the various conditions of the unsaved !

Evasion! Rabbit Trail! I quoted exactly what I was referring to:

Where does it say that God was commanding the unsaved to repent ?

Who said eveyone present at mars Hill was unsaved ? If in fact any there was lost....

For us to even entertain what you asked/proposed in these two sentences, one must assume that everyone present was saved, of the elect.

I also went on and offered you a plausible explanation, something you could use to back out of your implausible question/proposal; but you didn't quote that part, and you've chosen to offer the same exact thing I offered you without giving me credit.

 

[OldRegular]

Deleted!!!!

 

[OldRegular]

OR, you should follow the discussion a little more carefully.
The context is within Acts 17--Paul preaching on Mars' Hill. I already posted the Scriptures here. Paul was preaching to unsaved pagan Athenians idolaters, who were also philosophers--Epicureans and Stoics. They were the ones that invited him to speak. They wanted to hear what he had to say. They were idolaters and unsaved. Just read the text. It is very clear.

Actually the context is the ridiculous OP!

SBM's words:

There was a great crowd at Mars' Hill. Perhaps Paul may have some that accompanied him present. But the crowd that he was preaching to were all unsaved. That is the reason he was preaching the gospel to them. The gospel is preached to the unsaved, and he was preaching to the unsaved Athenians.

Where does it say that God commanded the unsaved to repent?
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
--This is where it says God commands the unsaved to repent,
and this is what SBM denies.

I have no interest in what SBM says or your response to her!

Now that you have this context, I will answer some of your questions.

1. Does God save everyone?
--No. He saves those who trust him, and accept His free gift of salvation; his payment for their sins which he paid on the cross.

Then according to you God is a, how do you put it?

This is your problem, the absurdity of Calvinistic thought that makes out God to be a cruel monster commanding the unsaved to repent after they have heard the gospel--to do that which they cannot do, and then sending them to Hell for all eternity because they don't have the ability to do what he commanded them to do. Absurd! Horrible! This is your doctrine.

It is not what the Bible teaches. It is not the love of God.

So God sends those who do not believe to hell? Is that a God of love?

2.Does God save those who have never heard the Gospel?
--He has promised a way that every person who wants to be saved can be saved. Part of that responsibility is on those of us who do believe in carrying out the Great Commission.

I asked about those who never hear the Gospel. Does God send them to hell?

3. What about all those people who lived before the time of Jesus Christ; were they all sentenced to hell since only the descendants of Abraham were given the "oracles of God"?
--We are all commanded to believe. They will be judged as Abraham was judged. Abraham believed God and it was accounted unto him for righteousness. He was justified. All OT people will be judged the same way, according to the light they were given.

Scripture teaches that the Gospel was preached to Abraham. He was justified by faith. How can all OT people be judged the same way as Abraham. That is nonsense.

You think!! I don't answer lightly. I have thought through these things very carefully.

I think it is sacrilegious/blasphemous to speak of God as you do in the above quote even if you do use the qualifier you do. That is what I think.

 

[DHK]

Okay, I am glad you chose Acts 17, so I will attempt to show you where and how you're wrong, imo...


First, let's set the backdrop of what type of environment Paul was stepping into at Athens...I will use the YLT....


16 and Paul waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, beholding the city wholly given to idolatry,

This is the type of environment one should expect when stuck in paganism. Shoot, look at what happened when Moses was on Mount Sinai. They made a golden calf to worship. People who know not God will create a god to worship. Look at all the OT gods that were mentioned. Even the native american indian believed in a 'happy hunting ground' for them when they died, and they left the hearts of the animals they killed so that their spirits would roam the forest.

21 and all Athenians, and the strangers sojourning, for nothing else were at leisure but to say something, and to hear some newer thing.

All they were were a bunch of busybodies and seeking worldly knowledge. If someone would have came along and was promoting Islam, they would have wanted to hear about it. Same as with mormonism, buddhism, &c.


23 for passing through and contemplating your objects of worship, I found also an erection on which had been inscribed: To God -- unknown; whom, therefore -- not knowing -- ye do worship, this One I announce to you.


Now, they had so may gods they worshipped and even had a altar dedicated unto the 'unknown god'. They had no idea, no clue, into who to worship. This is why God sent Paul there...He had sheep there to bring into the fold.


24 God, who did make the world, and all things in it, this One, of heaven and of earth being Lord, in temples made with hands doth not dwell, 25 neither by the hands of men is He served -- needing anything, He giving to all life, and breath, and all things;


Here Paul is telling them that God doesn't dwell in temples made with hands. He is rebuking them for their gods they have strung all over the place.


30 the times, indeed, therefore, of the ignorance God having overlooked, doth now command all men everywhere to reform, 31 because He did set a day in which He is about to judge the world in righteousness, by a man whom He did ordain, having given assurance to all, having raised him out of the dead.'


Why did God command all men everywhere to repent/reform? Because of the day when Christ will judge the world in righteousness. Now, God commanded all of Isarel to keep the Law, and if they broke it, they died. God knew full well they couldn't, commanded them to keep it, and punished them accordingly. We are even told to "be ye holy even as I am holy", yet can we meet those standards? Absolutely not. The only way is through Christ.


Now, here is why God sent Paul to Athens....


32 And having heard of a rising again of the dead, some, indeed, were mocking, but others said, `We will hear thee again concerning this; 33 and so Paul went forth from the midst of them, 34 and certain men having cleaved to him, did believe, among whom [is] also Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman, by name Damaris, and others with them.


You can see that the gospel will never go 'response-less', because it will alway elicit a repsonse, whether in a positive or negative manner. Some mocked Paul and some desired to hear more. That is the way the gospel works. Some receive it, some reject it.

1. You are illogical. One doesn't start from the known conclusion and build a prejudicial premise from it. Ridiculous! The outcome could have been different. It is God that gives the fruit.

2. As you pointed out:
16 and Paul waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, beholding the city wholly given to idolatry,
--Paul himself testified that the city was wholly given to idolatry. It was pagan. He was testifying of a place where there were no believers that he knew of.

3. That sits in stark contrast to the example you gave of the Jews who turned to the golden calf who had heard and seen the truth a multitude of times. They had heard directly from Moses, had seen God's hand in Egypt through great miracles, seen God speak to Moses, and use Aaron. They had no excuse as a nation called out by God.
--These people were pagan, idolatrous philosophers. Apples and oranges.

In 1Cor.3 Paul sets forth some basic principles.
There are some that plant, some that water, but it is God that gives the increase. In the conclusion God gave the increase. There were no saved already there. Some believed on Christ. After hearing the Word preached they were saved. There was no regeneration beforehand. They were saved because they heard and believed the Word of God.
Why do you think you have proved me wrong?
We are to be witnesses for Christ, as Paul was.
We are to expect fruit as we preach His Word, just as their was fruit when Paul preached his word. It is God that gives the increase.

What am I missing here.
Did these idolatrous Athenians some time before Paul arrived go on their beds, each in their own private rooms, sit in a lotus position, and mystically await the Holy Spirit to come upon them and regenerate them without them ever hearing the Word of God? Is that what you guys actually believe?

 

[convicted1]

1. You are illogical. One doesn't start from the known conclusion and build a prejudicial premise from it. Ridiculous! The outcome could have been different. It is God that gives the fruit.

2. As you pointed out:
16 and Paul waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, beholding the city wholly given to idolatry,
--Paul himself testified that the city was wholly given to idolatry. It was pagan. He was testifying of a place where there were no believers that he knew of.

3. That sits in stark contrast to the example you gave of the Jews who turned to the golden calf who had heard and seen the truth a multitude of times. They had heard directly from Moses, had seen God's hand in Egypt through great miracles, seen God speak to Moses, and use Aaron. They had no excuse as a nation called out by God.
--These people were pagan, idolatrous philosophers. Apples and oranges.

In 1Cor.3 Paul sets forth some basic principles.
There are some that plant, some that water, but it is God that gives the increase. In the conclusion God gave the increase. There were no saved already there. Some believed on Christ. After hearing the Word preached they were saved. There was no regeneration beforehand. They were saved because they heard and believed the Word of God.
Why do you think you have proved me wrong?
We are to be witnesses for Christ, as Paul was.
We are to expect fruit as we preach His Word, just as their was fruit when Paul preached his word. It is God that gives the increase.

What am I missing here.
Did these idolatrous Athenians some time before Paul arrived go on their beds, each in their own private rooms, sit in a lotus position, and mystically await the Holy Spirit to come upon them and regenerate them without them ever hearing the Word of God? Is that what you guys actually believe?

Jesus stated, "I have other sheep not of this fold." Now, what fold was "not of this fold"? The fold was the Jews and the 'other sheep' were the Gentiles that were His sheep. They were His sheep, not after they believed, but before, having been sheep gone astray. They needed to hear the gospel in order to be placed into the fold. The gospel and faith are the conduit which God uses to bring them into the fold. That's why God sent Paul to Athens...to proclaim Christ to those wandering sheep..."and when his own sheep he may put forth, before them he goeth on, and the sheep follow him, because they have known his voice, I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd."

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

2. As you pointed out:
16 and Paul waiting for them in Athens, his spirit was stirred in him, beholding the city wholly given to idolatry,
--Paul himself testified that the city was wholly given to idolatry. It was pagan. He was testifying of a place where there were no believers that he knew of.

It doesnt matter, God's Elect , no matter where they are at, what false religions they are involved in, what Idolatry they may be practicing, when its time for them to become believers, God sends them a Faithful Messenger like a Paul. Paul was told by Christ in a vision to stay in Corinth, a town of much idolatry, but God had Sheep there to Hear His Voice, Paul was to abide there and Speak the Word for the sake of the Sheep that needed to believe Acts 18:8-11

8 And Crispus, the chief ruler of the synagogue, believed on the Lord with all his house; and many of the Corinthians hearing believed, and were baptized.

9 Then spake the Lord to Paul in the night by a vision, Be not afraid, but speak, and hold not thy peace:

10 For I am with thee, and no man shall set on thee to hurt thee: for I have much people in this city.

Jn 10:16

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

11 And he continued there a year and six months, teaching the word of God among them.

They Hear Christ's Voice through the Faitfully Preached word and they believe !

There were some who God had appointed to Eternal Life on Mars Hill Acts 17:31-34


31 Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter.

33 So Paul departed from among them.

34 Howbeit certain men clave unto him, and believed: among the which was Dionysius the Areopagite, and a woman named Damaris, and others with them.

Paul was sent to mars Hill for the sake of those men who believed !

The others who did not believe, simple, they were not of Christ's Sheep Jn 10:26

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

 

[Iconoclast]

OldRegular

Actually the context is the ridiculous OP!

I think it is sacrilegious/blasphemous to speak of God as you do in the above quote even if you do use the qualifier you do. That is what I think.

:applause::applause::applause::thumbsup:

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus stated, "I have other sheep not of this fold." Now, what fold was "not of this fold"? The fold was the Jews and the 'other sheep' were the Gentiles that were His sheep. They were His sheep, not after they believed, but before, having been sheep gone astray. They needed to hear the gospel in order to be placed into the fold.

Not of "this fold".

He is not saying "I only love some people -- not really the world so don't go around with that - God so loved the WORLD message".

"I will draw ALL mankind unto me" John 12:32 because "God so loved the WORLD -- yes really". In calvinism it all adds up to a false over-stated marketing campaign.

I prefer to think it is true rather than over-marketing.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

They know that Calvinism does not work - so they "preach the arminian gospel" when they want to convert the lost. The they make choir members out of those who come forward and preach "to the choir" the gospel that they "really" believe because then they don't have to be concerned about failing to convert someone. And then to top it all off - the rest of us "are not supposed to notice"??

It is pretty clear that this sort of "sermon" does not work - and even Calvinists know not to preach it -

================================================== ==================

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Nothing I say and nothing you choose this evening will make any difference at all in the outcome,

You cannot obtain salvation by choosing something today nor can you affect your eternal doom if in fact you are forsaken of God.

You and I have no control at all over that.

Let's all just be seated for the rest of the meeting - and in silence watch to see what God is sovereignly going to do, perhaps He will cause someone to get saved as we watch.

20 minute pause ...

Dismissed.

================================================== =========

 

[DHK]

Jesus stated, "I have other sheep not of this fold." Now, what fold was "not of this fold"? The fold was the Jews and the 'other sheep' were the Gentiles that were His sheep. They were His sheep, not after they believed, but before, having been sheep gone astray. They needed to hear the gospel in order to be placed into the fold. The gospel and faith are the conduit which God uses to bring them into the fold. That's why God sent Paul to Athens...to proclaim Christ to those wandering sheep..."and when his own sheep he may put forth, before them he goeth on, and the sheep follow him, because they have known his voice, I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd his life layeth down for the sheep;I am the good shepherd, and I know my [sheep], and am known by mine, according as the Father doth know me, and I know the Father, and my life I lay down for the sheep, and other sheep I have that are not of this fold, these also it behoveth me to bring, and my voice they will hear, and there shall become one flock -- one shepherd."

Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53:11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

Acts 10:43 To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

The sheep constitute those who have believed on his name. The Lord knew who they would be because of his omniscience. He did not randomly select some to heaven and others to hell--what Calvin teaches. Those that believe are those that are his sheep. All are given that freedom either to receive or reject Christ.
Yes, God's sovereignty is that great. He is not limited to the small view of Calvinism but is great enough to give to man within his own sovereignty the freedom to choose good or bad, for man is made in the image of God.