Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[convicted1]

OK you have shown scripture changing the heart. I asked for scripture changing the will.

The heart changing changes the will...

A hardened heart will never be receptive to the engrafted word, the seed...

But a heart of love that God gives, taking the stony one out, changes the will...

 

[Iconoclast]

I am saying you are not consistent. You keep contradicting yourself.
When I first summed up what the doctrine of reprobation taught you flipped your lid!!

Here was your first reaction when I quoted snippets from the doctrine of reprobation:

But now that I have quoted it from a reputable source you have changed your mind. Why the change, Icon? You didn't believe me in the first place. Instead you went to your usual MO of name-calling and derogatory language. Typical.
__________________

Really.....lets take a look. That is a serious accusation...lying !I changed my mind?....well let's see what you posted on this-

you wrote

You laugh at this doctrine. It is a horrendous doctrine.

God, from eternity past, selects one group of people to be saved and live eternally in heaven

.


yes He does,,,He did not have to elect any.
He for His own purpose elects a multitude of guilty sinners to be saved by His Son.

And then;

God, from eternity past, selects another group of people to be eternally damned in the Lake of fire--created just for that purpose, for nothing that they have done.

This is a lie and vicious charge against God himself. Did that good article say that? Did Lorraine Boettner say that...lets look-

This, too, is of God. We believe that from all eternity God has intended to leave some of Adam's posterity [in their sins, and that the decisive factor in the life of each is to be found only in God's will. As Mozley has said, the whole race after the fall was "one mass of perdition," and "it pleased God of His sovereign mercy to rescue some and to leave others where they were; to raise some to glory, giving them such grace as necessarily qualified them for it, and abandon the rest, from whom He withheld such grace, to eternal punishments."

No he did not...so it was you who lied once again....It says they were considered dead in their sins....
The article did not say these people were only created for hell and that they did nothing at all...in fact the confessions of faith do not say that at all....

The conf speaks of the others left to act IN THEIR SIN and go to the just condemnation...look it is right here;

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice. ( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

Even if they hear and understand the gospel they are not permitted to receive it. They are eternally damned.

Another lie. Show anywhere that this is taught by any responsible cal.

If you cannot be truthful you should step down from your supposed role as a teacher of anybody. This is horrible

 

[Iconoclast]

I did. May I suggest that you did not?

God can do whatever he pleases. If he chooses to not do something (elect some in this case) that is his right and who are you to say he cannot? Choosing not to act and elect some, is not to say that God cannot elect. You are, again, confused.
That is not in the quote you provided. Again, you are simply mishandling or misrepresenting what is said.

Also, this has zip to do with God having a conversation with the spiritually dead. You are, badly, confusing your categories.

You and others have once again caught DHK telling falsehoods.
He now will jump all over the place to confuse the issue as he often does.

He claimed that non elect people get saved, but offers no proof.

 

[Iconoclast]

the article says this;

This reprobation or passing by of the non-elect is not founded merely upon a foresight of their continuance in sin; for if that had been a proper cause, reprobation would have been the fate of all men, for all were foreseen as sinners. Nor can it be said that those who were passed by were in all cases worse sinners than those who were brought to eternal life. The Scriptures always ascribe faith and repentance to the good pleasure of God and to the special gracious operation of His Spirit. Those who conceive of mankind as innocent and deserving of salvation are naturally scandalized when any portion of the race is antecendently consigned to punishment. But when the doctrine of Original Sin, which is taught so clearly and repeatedly in the Scriptures, is seen in its proper setting, the objections to predestination disappear and the condemnation of the wicked seems only just and natural. Thus salvation is of the Lord alone, and damnation wholly from ourselves. Men perish because they will not come to Christ; yet if they have a will to come, it is God who works the will in them. Grace, electing grace, both draws the will and keeps it steady; and to grace be all the praise.

Furthermore, out of a world of sinful and rebellious subjects, none of whom were in themselves worthy of saving, God has graciously chosen some when he might have passed by all as He did the fallen angels (2 Peter 2:4; Jude 6). He has taken it altogether upon Himself to provide the redemption through which His people are saved. The atonement, therefore, is His own property; and He certainly may, as He most assuredly will, do what He pleases with His own. Grace is given to one and withheld from another as He sees best. It is to be noticed also that the withholding of His grace from the non-elect is but the negative cause of their perishing, just as the absence of a physician from the sick man is the occasion, not the efficient cause, of his death. "In the sight of an infinitely good and merciful God," says Dr. Charles Hodge, "it was necessary that some of the rebellious race of man should suffer the penalty of the law which all have broken. It is God's prerogative to determine who shall be vessels of mercy, and who shall be left to the just recompense of their sins."59

For any who can read without lying, you can see the explanation given is biblically consistent.

 

[Iconoclast]

Can you name a three scriptures that shows us this changing of the will

psa110
3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

dan4
16 Let his heart be changed from man's, and let a beast's heart be given unto him; and let seven times pass over him.

prov 21 The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, as the rivers of water: he turneth it whithersoever he will.
acts16
14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

acts11
21 And the hand of the Lord was with them: and a great number believed, and turned unto the Lord.

acts13
48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed

1thess1
4 Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.

5 For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

6 And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost.

7 So that ye were ensamples to all that believe in Macedonia and Achaia.

8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

I am not confused,

Your posts say something different

but the Calvinist is

.

it does not look that way.

He proposes a theology that contradicts itself.

not at all. this is why they say you are confused

Obviously, if man is predestined from eternity past to be of the non-elect, reprobate,

It does not really happen that way...predestination is a positive act toward the elect. The others are left or passed over[preterition]

to end up in the lake of God, then God cannot change his mind.

God never has to change His mind. Why would He?

It has so been decreed.

whatever comes to pass has been decreed.

The non-elect have no choice in the matter.

they always choose sin

Read your Calvinistic theologies. This, of course, is not my theology.

yes....we see the results of that in the error you post.

But according to the Calvinist it must be so. It is truly incredible that any one person, much less multitudes should believe such erroneous theology

.
Most of the believing church comes to know these truths:applause:

The non-elect are spiritually dead. As SBM keeps pointing out, they are spiritually dead. They cannot respond. They are blind. They will never respond to the gospel

.
okay...

They are elected to the Lake of Fire.

what verse do you have on this election.

They can't have a conversation with God.

unsaved religious people pray, God sometimes answers the prayer of the unsaved...they still go to hell however.

They are of the non-elect--all of this coming from the Calvinist point of view.
I am simply pointing out the inconsistencies of such a position.

you have not pointed out any inconsistency, just your unbelief.:thumbsup:

 

[savedbymercy]

God created Adam and Eve. There was no sin in them. He created them with a will to choose between good and evil. They choose to rebel against God. They had the will to choose either one. Man still has that same choice today. He may have a depraved nature, but he still can choose good.
If one takes away the choice to choose to do good, then it is only logical to say that he cannot choose evil either. He can choose. He has that ability, as Paul states in Romans 7:18.

According to Calvinism he didn't choose out of an "already fallen state." He chose before the foundation of the world. That is what makes this doctrine so horrible. That for no reason of their own, he condemned "the non-elect" to an eternity of hell-fire--having done neither good nor bad.

We are all condemned to hell. Those of us who accept God's merciful and gracious offer of His gift of salvation will go to heaven. It is Christ that paid the penalty for our sins. God did not simply pick some to be saved and others to be lost. The basis of our salvation is:
1. The penalty that Christ paid on the cross.
2. Our faith in receiving that gift--for by grace are ye saved through faith.

If there was no sin in them, what was it in Eve that enticed her to disobedience at the tempting of the serpent ? At her temptation sin that was in her already was manifested ! Adam and Eve had no love for God in their hearts when they were created, so they were sinful from the start !

 

[savedbymercy]

God created Adam and Eve. There was no sin in them. He created them with a will to choose between good and evil. They choose to rebel against God. They had the will to choose either one. Man still has that same choice today. He may have a depraved nature, but he still can choose good.
If one takes away the choice to choose to do good, then it is only logical to say that he cannot choose evil either. He can choose. He has that ability, as Paul states in Romans 7:18.

According to Calvinism he didn't choose out of an "already fallen state." He chose before the foundation of the world. That is what makes this doctrine so horrible. That for no reason of their own, he condemned "the non-elect" to an eternity of hell-fire--having done neither good nor bad.

We are all condemned to hell. Those of us who accept God's merciful and gracious offer of His gift of salvation will go to heaven. It is Christ that paid the penalty for our sins. God did not simply pick some to be saved and others to be lost. The basis of our salvation is:
1. The penalty that Christ paid on the cross.
2. Our faith in receiving that gift--for by grace are ye saved through faith.

What scripture says that sinful man can choose spiritual good ? That statement is invalid and false ! Those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

 

[DHK]

Really.....lets take a look. That is a serious accusation...lying !I changed my mind?....well let's see what you posted on this-

you wrote

yes He does,,,He did not have to elect any.
He for His own purpose elects a multitude of guilty sinners to be saved by His Son.

And then;
[/COLOR]
This is a lie and vicious charge against God himself. Did that good article say that? Did Lorraine Boettner say that...lets look-

No he did not...so it was you who lied once again....It says they were considered dead in their sins....
The article did not say these people were only created for hell and that they did nothing at all...in fact the confessions of faith do not say that at all....

The conf speaks of the others left to act IN THEIR SIN and go to the just condemnation...look it is right here;

Another lie. Show anywhere that this is taught by any responsible cal.

If you cannot be truthful you should step down from your supposed role as a teacher of anybody. This is horrible

No lies Icon, only Calvinistic contradictions. They were "elected before the foundation of the world," before the world was even created. They were not "in Adam," had not sinned, etc. They had not done or had a chance to do anything. They were not even created yet. They were predestinated before they were created.
Calvinists redefine words according to their theology.
Consider: Predestination does not CAUSE willful choice or sin.
Neither does foreknowledge. Just because God foreknew some event does not bring the event to pass. He is omniscient. Omniscience is not the Cause.
But Calvinistic doctrine has a warped theology that has put God as the author of evil, the Creator of a select group of people predestined to the Lake of Fire. They were and are created for that purpose--no chance to repent--so says the Calvinist!

 

[Iconoclast]

No lies Icon, only Calvinistic contradictions. They were "elected before the foundation of the world," before the world was even created. They were not "in Adam," had not sinned, etc. They had not done or had a chance to do anything. They were not even created yet. They were predestinated before they were created.
Calvinists redefine words according to their theology.
Consider: Predestination does not CAUSE willful choice or sin.
Neither does foreknowledge. Just because God foreknew some event does not bring the event to pass. He is omniscient. Omniscience is not the Cause.
But Calvinistic doctrine has a warped theology that has put God as the author of evil, the Creator of a select group of people predestined to the Lake of Fire. They were and are created for that purpose--no chance to repent.

a wrong view of foreknowledge
God is not the author of sin...no cal says that.
this is as foolish as Steavers sermon

read John Murray on redemption accomplished and applied

This is by far one of the greatest works I've ever read on the subject concerning the very heart of the Christian faith: redemption. Systematically going through the aspects of both the accomplishment of redemption and its application to the believer, Murray leaves the believer with nothing but a humble fear and an unquenchable joy because of the person and work of Christ the Savior.

The book is laid out as follows:

Part 1: Redemption Accomplished

1. The Necessity of the Atonement
2. The Nature of the Atonement
3. The Perfection of the Atonement
4. The Extent of the Atonement
5. Conclusion

Part 2: Redemption Applied

1. The Order of Application
2. Effectual Calling
3. Regeneration
4. Faith and Repentance
5. Justification
6. Adoption
7. Sanctification
8. Perseverance
9. Union with Christ
10. Glorification

After taking the reader through the Scriptures as they pertain to each of these topics, one cannot help but to bask in the glory of being united to Christ, rest peacefully in the redemption He accomplished for your sake, and look forward boldly into the future when we shall be glorified with Him because of what He's done.

This book is going to be one that I'll read over and over again. It never gets old, and its audience is never unfit. Whatever your current status in your walk with the Lord, this book will refresh your heart and convict your soul - to the glory of Christ our Lord and Savior! (less)

 

[DHK]

What scripture says that sinful man can choose spiritual good ? That statement is invalid and false ! Those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

Any time you post a statement (not now) that is not posted in truth and in sincerity, it is posted "in the flesh," and it is a "carnal post."

 

[convicted1]

 

[convicted1]

a wrong view of foreknowledge
God is not the author of sin...no cal says that.
this is as foolish as Steavers sermon

read John Murray on redemption accomplished and applied

This is by far one of the greatest works I've ever read on the subject concerning the very heart of the Christian faith: redemption. Systematically going through the aspects of both the accomplishment of redemption and its application to the believer, Murray leaves the believer with nothing but a humble fear and an unquenchable joy because of the person and work of Christ the Savior.

The book is laid out as follows:

Part 1: Redemption Accomplished

1. The Necessity of the Atonement
2. The Nature of the Atonement
3. The Perfection of the Atonement
4. The Extent of the Atonement
5. Conclusion

Part 2: Redemption Applied

1. The Order of Application
2. Effectual Calling
3. Regeneration
4. Faith and Repentance
5. Justification
6. Adoption
7. Sanctification
8. Perseverance
9. Union with Christ
10. Glorification

After taking the reader through the Scriptures as they pertain to each of these topics, one cannot help but to bask in the glory of being united to Christ, rest peacefully in the redemption He accomplished for your sake, and look forward boldly into the future when we shall be glorified with Him because of what He's done.

This book is going to be one that I'll read over and over again. It never gets old, and its audience is never unfit. Whatever your current status in your walk with the Lord, this book will refresh your heart and convict your soul - to the glory of Christ our Lord and Savior! (less)

 

[convicted1]

It was not so affected that man, of his own will, cannot seek God, choose God, or even repent. God doesn't command the unsaved to do those things which are impossible for him to do.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
Psalms 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Scripture does not teach that man cannot freely choose God. Man is not a robot, forced to do God's will. This is a Calvinist concept that is not biblical. God has given man a will, for he is made in God's image. He chooses either to receive or reject Christ.

I already went through the first half of this chapter. This verse is written to Christians, about Christians, and never for a moment has the non-elect in mind.

Nonsense!

Yes, you are right. That is what make Calvinism so cruel. Their sins are all paid for, and yet they are doomed to hell anyway. The onus is on them to reject or receive the gift of salvation that Christ paid for. It is not automatic.

 

[savedbymercy]

Any time you post a statement (not now) that is not posted in truth and in sincerity, it is posted "in the flesh," and it is a "carnal post."

Again:

What scripture says that sinful man can choose spiritual good ? That statement is invalid and false ! Those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Everyone not born of the Spirit is in the flesh !

 

[savedbymercy]

dhk

It was not so affected that man, of his own will, cannot seek God, choose God, or even repent.

Uh, please provide the scripture that says this ?

Scripture is quite clear that those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

Also mans heart by nature cannot repent. Paul says of the carnal and natural heart Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

That word impenitent is the greek word ametanoētos and means :

I.admitting no change of mind, unrepented, impenitent

All men by nature have a hard heart towards God, so God must take away the heart of stone we have by nature, as like stated here Ezk 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony[hard] heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

So until God takes away a hard impenitent heart like Rom 2:5 it remains unrepentent ! It cannot please God Rom 8:8 its not subject to God Rom 8:7

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

So all you are doing is making false invalid statements that contradict scripture, which is to glory in man ! You glory in man !

 

[Baptist4life]

"robot" :tongue3:

 

[steaver]

a wrong view of foreknowledge
God is not the author of sin...no cal says that.
this is as foolish as Steavers sermon

Which part??

This part...

Now even some of you out here who think you are "believers" may protest. You may say, "well I'm a believer on Jesus Christ and a child of God, but I do not believe in TULIP/Calvinism. With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures as you claim, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God then?"

No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

Or this part maybe....

You see, the way God is portrayed in the bible is One who chooses according to His good will and pleasure, loves some and hates the rest, has mercy on some and hardens the others, calls some and leaves the rest in their fallen state.

Of course, you have yet to point out which parts are dishonest and why....still waiting....34 pages now....still a lot of whining.... no substance....

 

[DHK]

dhk

Uh, please provide the scripture that says this ?

Romans 8:8; Heb.11:6; and many others.
The fact is that believers are not perfect. If you say you are you need to read 1John 1:8,10. Every sin you commit is of the flesh. It is carnal. It does not please God. Wouldn't you agree with that? Does your sin please God. Even the disciples had lack of faith at times. Do you also?

Scripture is quite clear that those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

Correct, and he is addressing believers. Believers ought not to live as unbelievers.

Also mans heart by nature cannot repent. Paul says of the carnal and natural heart Rom 2:5

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Chapter two of the Book of Romans is directed to the Jews. They thought they were better than everyone else. Paul is pointing out that they were not. The committed the same sins as others, and by doing so were gathering up "wrath against the day of wrath" when the time would come when they would stand before God.

All men by nature have a hard heart towards God, so God must take away the heart of stone we have by nature, as like stated here Ezk 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony[hard] heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

So until God takes away a hard impenitent heart like Rom 2:5 it remains unrepentent ! It cannot please God Rom 8:8 its not subject to God Rom 8:7

You are conflating two very different contexts.
Calvinism has it backwards. Faith and repentance comes first. And then regeneration. Once an individual repents, then God gives a new heart. Why should he do it before that time?
Besides that, the passage specifically addresses the Jews.

7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Fits in nicely with James 4:4, also written to believers. "Whosoever therefore is a friend of the world is the enemy of God." God detests things that are done in the flesh--worldliness.

So all you are doing is making false invalid statements that contradict scripture, which is to glory in man ! You glory in man !

No, they harmonize with scripture when understood in their proper context.

 

[DHK]

Again:

What scripture says that sinful man can choose spiritual good ? That statement is invalid and false ! Those in the flesh cannot please God Rom 8:8 !

8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Everyone not born of the Spirit is in the flesh !

Have you not read the account of Nicodemus coming to Jesus.
Jesus answered him saying: "You must be born again."
He said: How can a man be born a second time..."
"Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; that which is born of the spirit is Spirit."
"Marvel not that I say unto you, ye must be born again."

First, we are all born of the flesh, and we will always have a flesh nature.
That flesh nature will never leave us until we get to heaven.
The problem is that we are not all born of the Spirit. That was Nicodemus's problem. He needed to be born a second time--of the Spirit.

How?
John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
--He had to accept the free gift that Christ was offering him at that time.

Christ goes on to demonstrate that in the next few verses culminating in verse 16.
John 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.