Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[RLBosley]

Can't see whatever it is, but I'll assume it's good!

 

[convicted1]

Calvinism states "no free will."
If that is true: There is no free will to receive Christ, then the corollary is also true.
There is no free will to reject Christ.
There is no free will to sin. There is no free will to do good, any good--providing nourishment for your family (as Jesus used for an example).

But there is will.
Paul said: "For to will is present with me..." (Romans 7:18). He did have "will."

Care to explain to me how God spoke to Satan and him spiritually dead?

 

[convicted1]

Can't see whatever it is, but I'll assume it's good!

Slam dunk emoticon from www.sherv.net

 

[RLBosley]

Gotcha. I think I've had this issue before, not being able to see your slam dunk emoticon. Ah well.

 

[Iconoclast]

For the umpteenth time. Calvinism does not say that man ha no will. Calvinism says that man's will is bound and enslaved, not nonexistent.

Carry on.

:thumbsup::sleeping_2::sleeping_2:

 

[DHK]

Care to explain to me how God spoke to Satan and him spiritually dead?

Where does it say he was "spiritually dead" according to the Cal definition?
It doesn't. As long as Cals use their own redefined words they will be lost forever in a theological wilderness of circular reasoning chasing their tails.

Obviously, Lucifer could talk to God as an angel. The Lucifer had "the free will" to rebel against God, just as man does today. Satan (as shown in the account of Job) "may" in some way still have access to God. (I am not dogmatic there because Job was written ca. 2000 B.C.). Either way, since then God has communicated with Satan. We know that. He communicated directly with Christ. He also communicates directly to man. He took full control of Judas Iscariot. Where does it specifically say he was "spiritually dead."
Satan is a "spirit," a spirit being.

God spoke to Cain, also being dead. He put a mark on him that no man should kill him. How did this man, being spiritually dead communicate verbally with God?

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

 

[RLBosley]

Is a debate on the spiritual condition of the Devil really necessary?!?

 

[DHK]

As a debate on the spiritual condition of the Devil really necessary?!?

No, they should no better than that. I shouldn't have to defend a position on that topic. But the theological position held in the wilderness of Calvinism is astounding.

 

[RLBosley]

No, they should no better than that. I shouldn't have to defend a position on that topic. But the theological position held in the wilderness of Calvinism is astounding.

What are you even babbling about? No one here, especially any Calvinist, has said anything about Satan being spiritually alive, so you do not need to defend anything regarding Satan's spiritual state. I think you are confused.

 

[DHK]

What are you even babbling about? No one here, especially any Calvinist, has said anything about Satan being spiritually alive, so you do not need to defend anything regarding Satan's spiritual state. I think you are confused.

It was said:

Care to explain to me how God spoke to Satan and him spiritually dead?

As if those that are spiritually dead cannot speak to God.
But Satan can, as could Adam, and Cain. Obviously the definition of spiritually dead is wrong according to Calvinism. (Even if I don't agree with the above premise about Satan).

 

[RLBosley]

As if those that are spiritually dead cannot speak to God.
But Satan can, as could Adam, and Cain. Obviously the definition of spiritually dead is wrong according to Calvinism. (Even if I don't agree with the above premise about Satan).

That wasn't his point at all.
I honestly don't even see how you got to that conclusion...

You asked him:

Again, how did a physically alive, but dead person carry on a conversation with God. Please elaborate.

He responded with a question of his own, how did Satan speak with God, being spiritually dead? The point is that God can indeed speak to those who are dead spiritually. No one at all implied that the spiritually dead cannot speak to God. Nor does this impact the Calvinistic understanding of spiritual death at all. Again, not sure how you think that.

 

[convicted1]

Where does it say he was "spiritually dead" according to the Cal definition?
It doesn't. As long as Cals use their own redefined words they will be lost forever in a theological wilderness of circular reasoning chasing their tails.

Obviously, Lucifer could talk to God as an angel. The Lucifer had "the free will" to rebel against God, just as man does today. Satan (as shown in the account of Job) "may" in some way still have access to God. (I am not dogmatic there because Job was written ca. 2000 B.C.). Either way, since then God has communicated with Satan. We know that. He communicated directly with Christ. He also communicates directly to man. He took full control of Judas Iscariot. Where does it specifically say he was "spiritually dead."
Satan is a "spirit," a spirit being.

God spoke to Cain, also being dead. He put a mark on him that no man should kill him. How did this man, being spiritually dead communicate verbally with God?

1 John 3:11 For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another.
12 Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous.

FYI, Lucifer wasn't Satan.

It was in reference to King Nebuchadnezzer....

 

[convicted1]

That wasn't his point at all.
I honestly don't even see how you got to that conclusion...

You asked him:



He responded with a question of his own, how did Satan speak with God, being spiritually dead? The point is that God can indeed speak to those who are dead spiritually. No one at all implied that the spiritually dead cannot speak to God. Nor does this impact the Calvinistic understanding of spiritual death at all. Again, not sure how you think that.

I shot a HUGE GAPING HOLE in his theology and he can't give a biblically supported answer to defend it so he 'pffffffft'......

 

[RLBosley]

FYI, Lucifer wasn't Satan.

It was in reference to King Nebuchadnezzer....

:thumbsup: I missed that part.

I shot a HUGE GAPING HOLE in his theology and he can't give a biblically supported answer to defend it so he 'pffffffft'......

Seems that way.

 

[DHK]

He responded with a question of his own, how did Satan speak with God, being spiritually dead? The point is that God can indeed speak to those who are dead spiritually. No one at all implied that the spiritually dead cannot speak to God. Nor does this impact the Calvinistic understanding of spiritual death at all. Again, not sure how you think that.

1. Replying with a question instead of answering the question usually either derails the thread or sends us on a rabbit trail. Better just to answer the question.
2. All of Calvinism believes that the spiritually dead cannot, will not, speak or communicate with God. It is impossible for them to do so. How can a dead man speak they say. Impossible. This is the Calvinist position.

But with Adam it was not so.
With Cain it was not so.
And, as Satan was thrown into the discussion, it was not so.

 

[RLBosley]

1. Replying with a question instead of answering the question usually either derails the thread or sends us on a rabbit trail. Better just to answer the question.

Our Lord often answered questions with questions. I will not fault anyone for copying his debate tactics.

And C1's question actually did answer yours.

2. All of Calvinism believes that the spiritually dead cannot, will not, speak or communicate with God. It is impossible for them to do so. How can a dead man speak they say. Impossible. This is the Calvinist position.

But with Adam it was not so.
With Cain it was not so.
And, as Satan was thrown into the discussion, it was not so.

Again, you show that you do not understand what you attack. That is not the Calvinist position. The Calvinist says how can the spiritually dead respond to the gospel without God acting on them first! That my friend is a world of difference compared to this strawman you have made.

 

[convicted1]

1. Replying with a question instead of answering the question usually either derails the thread or sends us on a rabbit trail. Better just to answer the question.
2. All of Calvinism believes that the spiritually dead cannot, will not, speak or communicate with God. It is impossible for them to do so. How can a dead man speak they say. Impossible. This is the Calvinist position.

But with Adam it was not so.
With Cain it was not so.
And, as Satan was thrown into the discussion, it was not so.

God spoke to Adam, who was spiritually dead...

God spoke to Cain who was spiritually dead...

God spoke to Satan, who was/is spiritually dead...

Jesus...God manifested in the flesh...spoke to Lazarus who was physically dead and he heard and responded..

Read John 5:28,29..."the hour is coming when all in the grave will hear the voice of the Son of God......."


God can speak to whosoever...that pesky little word....and they will hear Him...

 

[Revmitchell]

God spoke to Adam, who was spiritually dead...

God spoke to Cain who was spiritually dead...

God spoke to Satan, who was/is spiritually dead...

Jesus...God manifested in the flesh...spoke to Lazarus who was physically dead and he heard and responded..

Read John 5:28,29..."the hour is coming when all in the grave will hear the voice of the Son of God......."


God can speak to whosoever...that pesky little word....and they will hear Him...

Except when it comes to salvation. Is that right?

 

[convicted1]

Except when it comes to salvation. Is that right?

What do you mean? Please elaborate. Unsure what you're exactly asking. Thanks.

 

[Revmitchell]

What do you mean? Please elaborate. Unsure what you're exactly asking. Thanks.

If the spiritually dead can hear God as you say but as one who holds to reformed doctrine you believe one must be regenerated in order to be able to respond to God with regards to salvation then you have a theological crisis. There is an inconsistency or tension that needs to be dealt with.