Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[convicted1]

If the spiritually dead can hear God as you say but as one who holds to reformed doctrine you believe one must be regenerated in order to be able to respond to God with regards to salvation then you have a theological crisis. There is an inconsistency or tension that needs to be dealt with.

God speaking to the spiritually dead doesn't, in and of itself, guarantee salvation. If that were the case, Satan wouldn't be where he's at right now. It has to do with the changing of the will. Only God changing one's will guarantees salvation. God's changing of one's will causes them to have acceptance, a postive response, to the gospel. God spoke directly to Satan and it didn't make him in accord with God. Why? His will wasn't changed by God, thereby, negating any positive response. God now speaks to us via the written word and gospel. If He doesn't change one's will, they'll never positively respond to it...

 

[DHK]

Our Lord often answered questions with questions. I will not fault anyone for copying his debate tactics.

And C1's question actually did answer yours.

Again, you show that you do not understand what you attack. That is not the Calvinist position. The Calvinist says how can the spiritually dead respond to the gospel without God acting on them first! That my friend is a world of difference compared to this strawman you have made.

The doctrine of absolute Predestination of course logically holds that some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life. The very terms "elect" and "election" imply the terms "non-elect" and "reprobation." When some are chosen out others are left not chosen. The high privileges and glorious destiny of the former are not shared with the latter. This, too, is of God. We believe that from all eternity God has intended to leave some of Adam's posterity in their sins, and that the decisive factor in the life of each is to be found only in God's will. As Mozley has said, the whole race after the fall was "one mass of perdition," and "it pleased God of His sovereign mercy to rescue some and to leave others where they were; to raise some to glory, giving them such grace as necessarily qualified them for it, and abandon the rest, from whom He withheld such grace, to eternal punishments."

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html
Read carefully.
God will not; cannot; act upon the non-elect. This horrible doctrine is not Biblical. The non-elect don't even have the will to believe. It is taken away from them. They are separated from God for all eternity, spiritually dead whether they like it or not, chosen to be in the Lake of Fire before the foundation of the world. That is Calvinism.

 

[convicted1]

Absolute predestination is something most Calvinists don't agree with.

God chose out of an already fallen race those He gave to the Lamb.

Absolute predestination is not predestination...two entirely different subjects...

 

[RLBosley]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html
Read carefully.

I did. May I suggest that you did not?

God will not; cannot; act upon the non-elect.

God can do whatever he pleases. If he chooses to not do something (elect some in this case) that is his right and who are you to say he cannot? Choosing not to act and elect some, is not to say that God cannot elect. You are, again, confused.

This horrible doctrine is not Biblical. The non-elect don't even have the will to believe. It is taken away from them. They are separated from God for all eternity, spiritually dead whether they like it or not, chosen to be in the Lake of Fire before the foundation of the world. That is Calvinism.

That is not in the quote you provided. Again, you are simply mishandling or misrepresenting what is said.

Also, this has zip to do with God having a conversation with the spiritually dead. You are, badly, confusing your categories.

 

[DHK]

Absolute predestination is something most Calvinists don't agree with.

God chose out of an already fallen race those He gave to the Lamb.

Absolute predestination is not predestination...two entirely different subjects...

By observation, most accept the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Icon has quoted from it many times.

Westminster Confession of Faith
III. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels[6] are predestinated unto everlasting life; and others foreordained to everlasting death

V. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to His eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of His will, has chosen, in Christ, unto everlasting glory,[9] out of His mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith, or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving Him thereunto;[10] and all to the praise of His glorious grace.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

It is the simple doctrine of predestination that is described here. And as described here, it is not described in the Word of God. This is indeed is held by most Calvinists.

 

[BobRyan]

Quote:
Originally Posted by JamesL
I've read it, and there are a couple of fundamental flaws. Not dishonesty, or anything necessarily wrong, but flaws.

The first flaw is presuming that a Calvinist would preach that message to an unbeliever. They wouldn't that sort of teaching comes later.

Which is precisely the point. Calvinists know that for evangelism you simply cannot preach Calvinism. It does not work.

Quote:
Kinda like the secrets of Freemasonry or Mormonism.

That is wayy more honesty than I was expecting.

Quote:
They preach Christ crucified, then turn it around later.

Yes indeed -- wayyy more honesty.

They know that Calvinism does not work - so they "preach the arminian gospel" when they want to convert the lost. The they make choir members out of those who come forward and preach "to the choir" the gospel that they "really" believe because then they don't have to be concerned about failing to convert someone. And then to top it all off - the rest of us "are not supposed to notice"??

It is pretty clear that this sort of "sermon" does not work - and even Calvinists know not to preach it -

====================================================================

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Nothing I say and nothing you choose this evening will make any difference at all in the outcome,

You cannot obtain salvation by choosing something today nor can you affect your eternal doom if in fact you are forsaken of God.

You and I have no control at all over that.

Let's all just be seated for the rest of the meeting - and in silence watch to see what God is sovereignly going to do, perhaps He will cause someone to get saved as we watch.

20 minute pause ...

Dismissed.

===========================================================

No matter that it reflects their belief on the subject.

That is, to put it mildly, buffalo chips! Moreover it is stupid. It is neither Calvinism or Arminianism

Are you claiming that Calvinists don't know Calvinism??

in Christ,

Bob

 

[DHK]

God can do whatever he pleases. If he chooses to not do something (elect some in this case) that is his right and who are you to say he cannot? Choosing not to act and elect some, is not to say that God cannot elect. You are, again, confused.

There are many things God cannot do. He cannot lie. He cannot do those things which are against his nature. He cannot go against His Word.
I am not confused, but the Calvinist is. He proposes a theology that contradicts itself. Obviously, if man is predestined from eternity past to be of the non-elect, reprobate, to end up in the lake of God, then God cannot change his mind. It has so been decreed. The non-elect have no choice in the matter. Read your Calvinistic theologies. This, of course, is not my theology. But according to the Calvinist it must be so. It is truly incredible that any one person, much less multitudes should believe such erroneous theology.

That is not in the quote you provided. Again, you are simply mishandling or misrepresenting what is said.

Also, this has zip to do with God having a conversation with the spiritually dead. You are, badly, confusing your categories.

The non-elect are spiritually dead. As SBM keeps pointing out, they are spiritually dead. They cannot respond. They are blind. They will never respond to the gospel. They are elected to the Lake of Fire. They can't have a conversation with God. They are of the non-elect--all of this coming from the Calvinist point of view.
I am simply pointing out the inconsistencies of such a position.

 

[convicted1]

By observation, most accept the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Icon has quoted from it many times.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

It is the simple doctrine of predestination that is described here. And as described here, it is not described in the Word of God. This is indeed is held by most Calvinists.

Here's whay you're missing, I'm afraid...

God chose out of an already fallen state those He gave to the Lamb. He did no injustice to those who were already fallen. God would still be holy, just, good, love, impeccable if He chose not to save even one of us, Adam and Eve included. This is where mercy is shown in that He chose a # that no man can # to give to His Son.


But He chose us out of an already fallen state...if He had left us there, it would not be an injustice to us, because we were already headed to hell to begin with...

That's where passages such as Exodus 9 and Romans 9 'click'...Pharaoh was already headed to hell, and God did him no injustice in raising him up to show His power....

 

[DHK]

Here's whay you're missing, I'm afraid...

God chose out of an already fallen state those He gave to the Lamb. He did no injustice to those who were already fallen. God would still be holy, just, good, love, impeccable if He chose not to save even one of us, Adam and Eve included. This is where mercy is shown in that He chose a # that no man can # to give to His Son.

God created Adam and Eve. There was no sin in them. He created them with a will to choose between good and evil. They choose to rebel against God. They had the will to choose either one. Man still has that same choice today. He may have a depraved nature, but he still can choose good.
If one takes away the choice to choose to do good, then it is only logical to say that he cannot choose evil either. He can choose. He has that ability, as Paul states in Romans 7:18.

But He chose us out of an already fallen state...if He had left us there, it would not be an injustice to us, because we were already headed to hell to begin with...

According to Calvinism he didn't choose out of an "already fallen state." He chose before the foundation of the world. That is what makes this doctrine so horrible. That for no reason of their own, he condemned "the non-elect" to an eternity of hell-fire--having done neither good nor bad.

That's where passages such as Exodus 9 and Romans 9 'click'...Pharaoh was already headed to hell, and God did him no injustice in raising him up to show His power....

We are all condemned to hell. Those of us who accept God's merciful and gracious offer of His gift of salvation will go to heaven. It is Christ that paid the penalty for our sins. God did not simply pick some to be saved and others to be lost. The basis of our salvation is:
1. The penalty that Christ paid on the cross.
2. Our faith in receiving that gift--for by grace are ye saved through faith.

 

[RLBosley]

There are many things God cannot do. He cannot lie. He cannot do those things which are against his nature. He cannot go against His Word.

Of course. I didn't mean to imply that something sinful was possible for God. I wouldn't think that was necessary to explain on a Christian forum.

I am not confused, but the Calvinist is. He proposes a theology that contradicts itself. Obviously, if man is predestined from eternity past to be of the non-elect, reprobate, to end up in the lake of God, then God cannot change his mind. It has so been decreed. The non-elect have no choice in the matter. Read your Calvinistic theologies. This, of course, is not my theology. But according to the Calvinist it must be so. It is truly incredible that any one person, much less multitudes should believe such erroneous theology.

Yes God made a choice. That does not mean that he could not have made another choice. I was simply responding to your false statement that God could not have acted differently toward the non-elect.

Also, you act as if God is condemning people who really want to be saved. Nonsense! Hell is locked from the inside! If the angels of God were to go to the gates of hell 10 million years after the final judgment and say to those there, "You are free to leave as long as you fall down and worship and love God." They would slam the doors shut and respond, "We'd rather rot in hell!" You completely fail to see just how bad the fall corrupted human nature.

The non-elect are spiritually dead. As SBM keeps pointing out, they are spiritually dead. They cannot respond. They are blind. They will never respond to the gospel. They are elected to the Lake of Fire. They can't have a conversation with God. They are of the non-elect--all of this coming from the Calvinist point of view.
I am simply pointing out the inconsistencies of such a position.

Why? That's a non-sequitur. Again, you show that you really don't seem to understand what you are talking about. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. And your increasing (it seems) hatred of Calvinism seems to be blinding you from learning.

Election and spiritual life/death are regarding salvation not God speaking to them. In the end, all people will see God and speak to him face to face, elect or not, spiritually alive or dead. Some will hear, "well done" and some will hear "depart" but all will have a conversation with God.

 

[convicted1]

God created Adam and Eve. There was no sin in them. He created them with a will to choose between good and evil. They choose to rebel against God. They had the will to choose either one. Man still has that same choice today. He may have a depraved nature, but he still can choose good.

Adam and Eve were the only ones made upright/sinless. When they sinned, that curse passed upon all mankind. We were born in a sinful state, and most definately not upright/sinless. Our nature was affected by the fall of Adam.

If one takes away the choice to choose to do good, then it is only logical to say that he cannot choose evil either. He can choose. He has that ability, as Paul states in Romans 7:18.

There's a will involved...self will. Our will has to be changed, bent towards God...

According to Calvinism he didn't choose out of an "already fallen state." He chose before the foundation of the world. That is what makes this doctrine so horrible. That for no reason of their own, he condemned "the non-elect" to an eternity of hell-fire--having done neither good nor bad.

Ephesians 1:4 states from the foundation of the world...

We are all condemned to hell. Those of us who accept God's merciful and gracious offer of His gift of salvation will go to heaven. It is Christ that paid the penalty for our sins. God did not simply pick some to be saved and others to be lost. The basis of our salvation is:
1. The penalty that Christ paid on the cross.
2. Our faith in receiving that gift--for by grace are ye saved through faith.

If Christ paid for everyone's sins everyone's saved. God's wrath was appeased, no wrath, no punishment to be meted out. That's cruel to cast those in hell who Christ paid their sin debt in full. That makes God cruel....

 

[Revmitchell]

God speaking to the spiritually dead doesn't, in and of itself, guarantee salvation. If that were the case, Satan wouldn't be where he's at right now. It has to do with the changing of the will. Only God changing one's will guarantees salvation. God's changing of one's will causes them to have acceptance, a postive response, to the gospel. God spoke directly to Satan and it didn't make him in accord with God. Why? His will wasn't changed by God, thereby, negating any positive response. God now speaks to us via the written word and gospel. If He doesn't change one's will, they'll never positively respond to it...

Can you name a three scriptures that shows us this changing of the will

 

[DHK]

Why? That's a non-sequitur. Again, you show that you really don't seem to understand what you are talking about. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. And your increasing (it seems) hatred of Calvinism seems to be blinding you from learning.

Election and spiritual life/death are regarding salvation not God speaking to them. In the end, all people will see God and speak to him face to face, elect or not, spiritually alive or dead. Some will hear, "well done" and some will hear "depart" but all will have a conversation with God.

Why?
Because the Westminster Confession of Faith, representative of Calvinist theology says so. That is why.

VII. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extends or withholds mercy, as He pleases, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by; and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.

They cannot respond to God and vice versa. That is not what the Bible teaches, but it is what Calvinism teaches. No such decree or teaching is found in the scriptures.

 

[Baptist4life]

God created Adam and Eve. There was no sin in them. He created them with a will to choose between good and evil. They choose to rebel against God. They had the will to choose either one. Man still has that same choice today. He may have a depraved nature, but he still can choose good.
If one takes away the choice to choose to do good, then it is only logical to say that he cannot choose evil either. He can choose. He has that ability, as Paul states in Romans 7:18.

According to Calvinism he didn't choose out of an "already fallen state." He chose before the foundation of the world. That is what makes this doctrine so horrible. That for no reason of their own, he condemned "the non-elect" to an eternity of hell-fire--having done neither good nor bad.

We are all condemned to hell. Those of us who accept God's merciful and gracious offer of His gift of salvation will go to heaven. It is Christ that paid the penalty for our sins. God did not simply pick some to be saved and others to be lost. The basis of our salvation is:
1. The penalty that Christ paid on the cross.
2. Our faith in receiving that gift--for by grace are ye saved through faith.

Amen! :applause:

 

[RLBosley]

Why?
Because the Westminster Confession of Faith, representative of Calvinist theology says so. That is why.

They cannot respond to God and vice versa. That is not what the Bible teaches, but it is what Calvinism teaches. No such decree or teaching is found in the scriptures.

:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
You must be intentionally ignoring the topic at hand. You can't be that dense. Are you Winman reincarnated???

 

[RLBosley]

If Christ paid for everyone's sins everyone's saved. God's wrath was appeased, no wrath, no punishment to be meted out. That's cruel to cast those in hell who Christ paid their sin debt in full. That makes God cruel....

:thumbsup:

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

- John Owen

 

[convicted1]

Can you name a three scriptures that shows us this changing of the will

Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, Jer. 31:33, Heb. 8:10 & 10:16...

All these verses deal with the hearts of man. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks(Matt. 12:34 & Luke 6:45). If from the heart that defiles a man(Matt. 15:11). When God changes the heart, He also changes the will...

 

[DHK]

Adam and Eve were the only ones made upright/sinless. When they sinned, that curse passed upon all mankind. We were born in a sinful state, and most definately not upright/sinless. Our nature was affected by the fall of Adam.

It was not so affected that man, of his own will, cannot seek God, choose God, or even repent. God doesn't command the unsaved to do those things which are impossible for him to do.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
Psalms 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

There's a will involved...self will. Our will has to be changed, bent towards God...

Scripture does not teach that man cannot freely choose God. Man is not a robot, forced to do God's will. This is a Calvinist concept that is not biblical. God has given man a will, for he is made in God's image. He chooses either to receive or reject Christ.

Ephesians 1:4 states from the foundation of the world...

I already went through the first half of this chapter. This verse is written to Christians, about Christians, and never for a moment has the non-elect in mind.

If Christ paid for everyone's sins everyone's saved.

Nonsense!

God's wrath was appeased, no wrath, no punishment to be meted out. That's cruel to cast those in hell who Christ paid their sin debt in full. That makes God cruel....

Yes, you are right. That is what make Calvinism so cruel. Their sins are all paid for, and yet they are doomed to hell anyway. The onus is on them to reject or receive the gift of salvation that Christ paid for. It is not automatic.

 

[convicted1]

It was not so affected that man, of his own will, cannot seek God, choose God, or even repent. God doesn't command the unsaved to do those things which are impossible for him to do.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
Psalms 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Scripture does not teach that man cannot freely choose God. Man is not a robot, forced to do God's will. This is a Calvinist concept that is not biblical. God has given man a will, for he is made in God's image. He chooses either to receive or reject Christ.

I already went through the first half of this chapter. This verse is written to Christians, about Christians, and never for a moment has the non-elect in mind.

Nonsense!

Yes, you are right. That is what make Calvinism so cruel. Their sins are all paid for, and yet they are doomed to hell anyway. The onus is on them to reject or receive the gift of salvation that Christ paid for. It is not automatic.

I tried.....

 

[Revmitchell]

Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, Jer. 31:33, Heb. 8:10 & 10:16...

All these verses deal with the hearts of man. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks(Matt. 12:34 & Luke 6:45). If from the heart that defiles a man(Matt. 15:11). When God changes the heart, He also changes the will...

OK you have shown scripture changing the heart. I asked for scripture changing the will.