Featured Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

I do believe the Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace but I do not consider myself a Calvinist simply because Calvin held some doctrines I reject. That being said I have already told you that your so-called-Calvinist-sermon was, to put it mildly nonsense but correctly junk, and invited you to read Spurgeon. I see that Rippon has basically made the same remarks.

 

Steaver,

Do you have elect or non-elect stamped on your forehead. Preachers don't have x-ray vision, they are to preach the Gospel. You know like John 3:16:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Or Matthew11:28-30:

28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Or 1 Timothy 1:15:

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Or Romans 1:16:

16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Answer me this O' learned steaver, when Paul preached to the Greeks on Mars Hill did he preach election or did he preach Jesus Christ?

You state it correctly. The OP sermon is dishonest! Therefore, it is impossible to respond to nonsense except to call it what it is, nonsense!

 

You are not a Calvinist OR.
The Calvinist says this verse applies only to the elect. The world is the world of the elect. "Perish" means "them that are perishing."

Another Calvinist poster believes this is totally irrelevant because of the doctrine of reprobation. The non-elect are blinded to the gospel forever. They cannot receive the gospel no matter how much it is preached. Only the elect will be saved and they will be saved regardless.

Only those sinners which are the elect.

 

Did the Apostle Paul hide the things he believed, rather the things God revealed to him. When Paul speaks of the Doctrines of Election and Grace he generally, if not always, was speaking to the Church, the true believers.

Raising them in debate and pretending they make a sermon is far different.

I have said numerous times that TULIP is not the sum total of the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace!

I believe Rippon already has.

 

They know that Calvinism does not work - so they "preach the arminian gospel" when they want to convert the lost. The they make choir members out of those who come forward and preach "to the choir" the gospel that they "really" believe because then they don't have to be concerned about failing to convert someone. And then to top it all off - the rest of us "are not supposed to notice"??

It is pretty clear that this sort of "sermon" does not work - and even Calvinists know not to preach it -

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Originally Posted by BobRyan
Nothing I say and nothing you choose this evening will make any difference at all in the outcome,

You cannot obtain salvation by choosing something today nor can you affect your eternal doom if in fact you are forsaken of God.

You and I have no control at all over that.

Let's all just be seated for the rest of the meeting - and in silence watch to see what God is sovereignly going to do, perhaps He will cause someone to get saved as we watch.

20 minute pause ...

Dismissed.

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No matter that it reflects their belief on the subject.

 

DHK

So DHK......could you explain how the everyone believing are not elect persons?

Could you explain how non elect persons......"see"?

 

Well, Icon the post was directed to OR, who says he is not a Calvinist. But you have jumped right in here.

The verse being responded to was John 3:16:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--There is no mention of "the elect" here. It is a complete eisigetical butchering of the verse--a denial of the free will of man. Whosoever believes in him will not perish. This is what the Calvinist denies over and over again.
The belief that God from eternity past damns the wicked to the Lake of Fire with no opportunity to believe the gospel or even choose to believe the gospel is contradicted by John 3:16. It also denies the love of God.

 

That is, to put it mildly, buffalo chips! Moreover it is stupid. It is neither Calvinism or Arminianism or Ms. White who saves. It is Jesus Christ who saves. Calvinism or Arminianism or semi-Pelaginism are simply attempts to explain the work of God and/or the work of man in salvation. The Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace, what some call Calvinism, best explain how God works in the Salvation of those who belong to Him.

{Of course for the disciples of Ms. White salvation is totally uncertain, awaiting the future investigative judgment.}

 

You got it correct. I believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace. I don't call myself a Calvinist simply because Calvin held some doctrines on Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Church governance with which I disagree. However, I believe that Calvin held to doctrines explaining the work of God and/or man in Salvation very much like those I believe.

I would add one other reason I reject the name Calvinism. It has become a pejorative because of people like you who have absolutely no understanding of the doctrine. Actually DHK you should be grateful that God did choose some to Salvation in Jesus Christ and provide the means whereby He could save them without compromising His righteousness otherwise none would be saved.


I would ask you a couple of questions DHK. How do you know that you are not one chosen from the foundation of the world unto Salvation in Jesus Christ? How do you know that God did not "new birth", that is regenerate you, before you believed?

 

1 Peter 1:1-12 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you, who, in the power of God are being guarded, through faith, unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time, in which ye are glad, a little now, if it be necessary, being made to sorrow in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith -- much more precious than of gold that is perishing, and through fire being approved -- may be found to praise, and honour, and glory, in the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom, not having seen, ye love, in whom, now not seeing and believing, ye are glad with joy unspeakable and glorified, receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls; concerning which salvation seek out and search out did prophets who concerning the grace toward you did prophecy, searching in regard to what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ that was in them was manifesting, testifying beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory after these, to whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to us they were ministering these, which now were told to you (through those who did proclaim good news to you,) in the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, to which things messengers do desire to bend looking."


Notice there is a certain folk in mind in regards to the foreknowledge of God. Now, you may say that Peter wrote this to the Jews and that's true. But it also goes out to the elect, those who compose the body of Christ, but Jew and Greek/Gentile.

The New Testament took effect after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Jesus had to die before His heirs could lay hold to it. Much like a last will and testament of people. It only takes effect after someone dies, and only those who are listed on that will take possession of what they left for them. Jesus did the same thing.....

 

DHK

It was not a private message that I jumped into was it DHK?

I jump in when I see obvious false teaching.....:wavey:

There is no mention of born from above in vs 16 either,
no mention of sanctification
no mention of justification
no mention of adoption...

this is a foolish statement you make DHK.....everyone who believes=elect:thumbs:

says you

.

free will does not exist...self will does

The verse says everyone believing....

Calvinists believe the scripture...everyone believing will be saved...

Jn 3:16 does not address that topic...speaking of eisegesis:thumbsup:

It declares the love of God to be found in His Son for everyone believing.

 

*****i goof*****

 

Therefore there need not be any emphasis on "elect" but rather on "those who believe" as the verse says: "whosoever believes in him shall not perish..." Why read into the verse that which is not there. Isn't it odd that there are literally hundreds of verses throughout the Bible that OFFER salvation to ALL who will RECEIVE it. Christ gives an invitation to come. The will is always always involved.

Man has a will. However the will must be exercised. When it is, a choice is made. What did Paul mean when he said:

Rom 7:18 ...for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
--You can wake up in the morning and "be willing to get up and make breakfast." But it is not going to happen unless you act on your will and choose to do it. Willingness is one thing. Acting on the will is even more important. This is what Paul said. How to perform that which is good, I find not. His will was there, but he wasn't performing what he wanted to do or willing to do.
Man is made in the image of God, and therefore has a will and is able to make a choice. This is Biblical teaching rather than Calvin-teaching.

Icon's special translation??

"Everyone believing..." Sounds like Wesleyanism or what you might call Arminianism. So, if you stop believing for one minute, have one doubt, you lose your salvation?? Is that what you mean by "everyone believing." I know you have "Icon's very special translation," but....

You are so right. It doesn't. But the Calvinist preaches reprobation from John 3:16 anyway. They redefine "world" to mean the elect. So what is the corollary?

The doctrine of reprobation does not declare the love of God in any way, shape, or form. It simply denies it.

Christ came to seek and to save the lost, those who could not see.
As "I once was lost but now am saved," the hymn writer said. He had heard the gospel, the Word of God, was convicted of his sin, and trusted Christ.
FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path.
Christ is the light of the world.

I said: "Anyone can see." Anyone can believe. Anyone can be saved.
Is the Christ you believe in so anemic that He can only save a very few people, and not able to save "whoever" comes to Him. Anyone can see. Anyone can come. Do you know how Hudson Taylor came to the Lord? He was sitting in a chair, picked up a tract and started to read it. Soon after he trusted Christ--by the reading of a tract. .

Foolishness. That is as foolish as saying that the Holy Spirit deliberately keeps people out of church. He physically closes their hearing from the preacher. Nonsense.

This is what you say when you have no answer for the truth. You are very condescending with no answer. I am not frustrated. I do have the truth. The Calvinist position is wrong. So, go ahead and lash out. I understand that you cannot answer my post.

I don't struggle with anything Icon. But you certainly have a hard time refuting what I post.
You have never been able to explain away 1Cor.3:1-5, where Paul speaks to Corinthian brethren as CARNAL. They are Carnal Christians. But you can call Paul a liar.

Notice the accusation of "false teacher" here.
Who is it that doesn't want to learn? Jesus invites people to come to him, and you say they can't. What a contradiction!

Or 1 Timothy 1:15:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
--Yes, Paul wasn't talking of the elect. He was chief among sinners--all sinners.

If you believe like SBM does, he came to save the Regenerated.
Most Calvinists believe you must believe one must be regenerated before they can be saved. SBM believes that regeneration takes place before the foundation of the world. You guys can't get your act together.

The Father gave all who came to Him and believed on Him. That is who was given.

I never said he did. He saves those who believe on his name. Check John 20:31.

Parables were not meant to teach doctrine but to illustrate doctrine already taught. Christ said: "Come unto me all ye.."
Whosoever believes on me shall have everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation...
I am the resurrection and the life, whosoever believes in me...
I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me.
I am the door...
He that takes of the water that I give shall never thirst again.
I am the light of the world, he that follows after me..
--He was speaking to the world. He was speaking to whoever would follow him. To whoever would believe in him.
--No, I am not the one teaching false doctrine, but you are making false accusations.

You don't believe what your own fellow Calvinists believe.
I will quote a fellow reformer for you:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html
This doctrine, as I said, is evil. This is not the God of love of the Bible describes. It is a horrible doctrine.

 

DHK

either way is okay as those who believe demonstrate their election.

It is there.
When any verse is used or explained the word of God does not contradict itself.
In other words....it presupposes God, the trinity, the Covenants, Heaven, Hell,

the teaching does not go away because each individual verse does not mention it......

also....people such as yourself want it to say or teach what it does not....

simple question;

Does it speak of every single person who ever lived?
or
Does it speak of everyone believing?

.

No...it is not "odd" but it is very merciful,and great.:thumbsup:

man does have a will and makes choices...yes he does

Cals teach this also.

AA and others have told you what it is.It is what the verse literally says...you stubbornly refuse to own up to it, and then not only that, but you now try and portray me as the one who is mistaken.....good job DHK!

Then you wonder why my responses are as you describe them when you provoke the response you get.

That is what the text is...It does not matter what it sounds like:thumbsup:

Most of the sermons I listen to are by men who study the texts of scripture in greek and Hebrew.

They break a text down by word order, and more importantly by the tenses of the gk language.

This text says everyone believing.....and continuing on in that belief...The initial belief happens at a point in time, however it continues on into the future.

Is that too much for you to grasp DHK?
no false decision , no backslider, no carnal Christian,...no...just real believers.

The doctrine of reprobation is a biblical doctrine that defines the boundaries of God's love. The love of God is only found In Christ

end of pt1

 

pt2
you were asked this question-

Could you explain how non elect persons"see"?

this does not answer the question

what the hymn writer said does not answer the question

that would mean he was elected to salvation....the question to you is HOW DO ANY NON ELECT PERSONS SEE?

these are all true...but do not answer the question

you did say that.....Jesus taught otherwise;
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

.

The biblical Christ saves all the Father gives to Him.....no more, no less....He is not willing that any of them perish, but that all come to repentance. His cross work actually accomplished complete salvation for those elected to it..

you say that Dhk - Jesus says ...No man can, unless the Father which has sent me draw him. I will believe Jesus rather than the false musings of uncle dhk.

.
God's providence and drawing work on display.

Your post is the only nonsense here. Sorry to confuse you with more scripture DHK;
you are denying the unseen work of the Holy Spirit as described in Jn3.....Could it be that you have no firsthand experience of this?
How else could you utter such a statement denying the supernatural work of God?

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

you do not like my answers but they are on target...take a poll if you want, others seem to think they answer you...maybe you should re-read them.

I do not agree...

.

I just explain it, no need to explain it away.

there is no such thing....they are spiritual as are all Christians but acting as if they were natural carnal persons in this one sin.

not at all...you maybe, but not Paul.

you have earned that title by consistent falsehood-
James 3

3 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
you have much error....

I just post scripture ...

strange that he wrote this then;
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

sbm speaks for himself....ask him...my beliefs are closer to O.R., rippon, reformed, con 1,jbh,rl bosley,etc.

.

regeneration and conversion happen at the same time.....a person can be drawn and convicted for a long time, but at one point in time the Spirit quickens them.

He must answer for himself....he uses many good verses, but you all gang up on him and he gets flustered. I do not shoot wounded soldiers dhk...I think he does not express what he believes clearly sometimes, and I have seen him express some error.
He does not ask me anything, so I figure he has other posters in mind.

agreed

I agree with this. Nothing I believe makes it otherwise...it does not have to.

you are getting worse, not better. I am just a messenger .

That might be. They might be smarter than I am. They might be more gifted. If they offer biblical correction I will consider it and if need be take heed. It is not about ego DHK...it is about truth.


I will quote a fellow reformer for you:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html
This doctrine, as I said, is evil. This is not the God of love of the Bible describes. It is a horrible doctrine.[/QUOTE]

Good quote....it describes the God of jn 3:16 as well as jn 17:1-3

 

Good quote....it describes the God of jn 3:16 as well as jn 17:1-3[/QUOTE]
Yes it is a good quote. Look at it again;

It was already stated: "God is a God of love to the elect."
The question is: Is God a God of love to the non-elect? Yes or no?
I think that the answer is obvious.

That is what makes this a horrendous evil doctrine.
The Bible teaches that God is love to all men, not just a select few.

 

My take on Calvinism.......

 

]

How does God love men...outside of Christ.

The bible says the love of God is found In Christ.

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


see the context and the location of the love?
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.