Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[OldRegular]

And yet not one post from a Calvinist in 24 pages which points to a part in the OP sermon which is being dishonest. Not one..........

I do believe the Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace but I do not consider myself a Calvinist simply because Calvin held some doctrines I reject. That being said I have already told you that your so-called-Calvinist-sermon was, to put it mildly nonsense but correctly junk, and invited you to read Spurgeon. I see that Rippon has basically made the same remarks.

 

[OldRegular]

Of course they are not like my OP sermon. I have heard many Calvinist preachers and they sound just like Arminian preachers. This is the problem, they don't preach the FULL truth of TULIP to the masses, oh they will preach it to their like minded believers.

Steaver,

Do you have elect or non-elect stamped on your forehead. Preachers don't have x-ray vision, they are to preach the Gospel. You know like John 3:16:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Or Matthew11:28-30:

28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Or 1 Timothy 1:15:

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Or Romans 1:16:

16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

Answer me this O' learned steaver, when Paul preached to the Greeks on Mars Hill did he preach election or did he preach Jesus Christ?

And again, more accusations of "misrepresentation" without any pointed argument towards any part of the OP sermon which is dishonest and why. Which part do you disagree with and why?

You state it correctly. The OP sermon is dishonest! Therefore, it is impossible to respond to nonsense except to call it what it is, nonsense!

 

[DHK]

Steaver,

Do you have elect or non-elect stamped on your forehead. And preachers don't have x-ray vision, they are to preach the Gospel. You know like John 3:16:

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

You are not a Calvinist OR.
The Calvinist says this verse applies only to the elect. The world is the world of the elect. "Perish" means "them that are perishing."

Or Matthew11:28-30:

28. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
29. Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
30. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Another Calvinist poster believes this is totally irrelevant because of the doctrine of reprobation. The non-elect are blinded to the gospel forever. They cannot receive the gospel no matter how much it is preached. Only the elect will be saved and they will be saved regardless.

Or 1 Timothy 1:15:

This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Only those sinners which are the elect.

Or Romans 1:16:

16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
It is the power of God unto salvation for the elect only.

Answer me this O' learned steaver, when Paul preached to the Greeks on Mars Hill did he preach election or did he preach Jesus Christ?

Only those elected before the foundation of the world found Christ.
To some here it is almost a fruitless debate; to some, not all.

 

[steaver]

I have been off this thread for several days but this morning I read the so-called sermon. Have you ever heard a so-called Calvinist preach such a sermon as you presented. I would say NO you have not.

THAT is the POINT brother!!! They hide the very things they believe!!

To put it bluntly you presented a collection of asinine statements. No preacher called by God would preach such nonsense as you present in your "sermon"!.

You haven't been following the debates here then brother. The points raised in the OP sermon come directly from preachers here on the BB. So you are very wrong!!

I suggest that you find some of Charles Spurgeon's sermons and read them. Then you will have some concept of what one who believes the Biblical Doctrines of Election and Grace preaches.

I know tons of preachers who preach the Biblical Doctrines of Election and Grace, myself included. They are very different than TULIP's version.

Frankly nothing in the so-called sermon merits comment and I have already told you {post's #60 & 62} that: as you boldly proclaim in the OP

And the point remains, not one Calvinist able to point out any dishonest part and why......

 

[OldRegular]

THAT is the POINT brother!!! They hide the very things they believe!!

Did the Apostle Paul hide the things he believed, rather the things God revealed to him. When Paul speaks of the Doctrines of Election and Grace he generally, if not always, was speaking to the Church, the true believers.

You haven't been following the debates here then brother. The points raised in the OP sermon come directly from preachers here on the BB. So you are very wrong!!

Raising them in debate and pretending they make a sermon is far different.

I know tons of preachers who preach the Biblical Doctrines of Election and Grace, myself included. They are very different than TULIP's version.

I have said numerous times that TULIP is not the sum total of the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace!

And the point remains, not one Calvinist able to point out any dishonest part and why......

I believe Rippon already has.

 

[BobRyan]

They know that Calvinism does not work - so they "preach the arminian gospel" when they want to convert the lost. The they make choir members out of those who come forward and preach "to the choir" the gospel that they "really" believe because then they don't have to be concerned about failing to convert someone. And then to top it all off - the rest of us "are not supposed to notice"??

It is pretty clear that this sort of "sermon" does not work - and even Calvinists know not to preach it -

====================================================================

Originally Posted by BobRyan
Nothing I say and nothing you choose this evening will make any difference at all in the outcome,

You cannot obtain salvation by choosing something today nor can you affect your eternal doom if in fact you are forsaken of God.

You and I have no control at all over that.

Let's all just be seated for the rest of the meeting - and in silence watch to see what God is sovereignly going to do, perhaps He will cause someone to get saved as we watch.

20 minute pause ...

Dismissed.

===========================================================

No matter that it reflects their belief on the subject.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

The Calvinist says this verse applies only to the elect. The world is the world of the elect. "Perish" means "them that are perishing."

So DHK......could you explain how the everyone believing are not elect persons?

Another Calvinist poster believes this is totally irrelevant because of the doctrine of reprobation. The non-elect are blinded to the gospel forever.

Could you explain how non elect persons......"see"?

They cannot receive the gospel no matter how much it is preached.
correct...1 cor2:14.....they cannot

Only the elect will be saved

Do you believe the elect will not be saved?

Only those sinners which are the elect.

I think you do not understand election unto salvation...what the bible says about it.If you did you would never make these posts.:thumbsup:

Or Romans 1:16:

16. For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
It is the power of God unto salvation for the elect only

.

If only the elect get saved then it is so DHK......how do you believe non elect sinners are saved???

Only those elected before the foundation of the world found Christ.

Of course DHK....you sound surprised:laugh::laugh:

 

[DHK]

DHK
So DHK......could you explain how the everyone believing are not elect persons?

Well, Icon the post was directed to OR, who says he is not a Calvinist. But you have jumped right in here.

The verse being responded to was John 3:16:
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
--There is no mention of "the elect" here. It is a complete eisigetical butchering of the verse--a denial of the free will of man. Whosoever believes in him will not perish. This is what the Calvinist denies over and over again.
The belief that God from eternity past damns the wicked to the Lake of Fire with no opportunity to believe the gospel or even choose to believe the gospel is contradicted by John 3:16. It also denies the love of God.

Could you explain how non elect persons......"see"?

They cannot receive the gospel no matter how much it is preached.
correct...1 cor2:14.....they cannot

Anyone can see.
Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Anyone "hearing" the Word of God can "see."
You do not rightly divide the word of truth.
1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--Take heed to the context.
It is not speaking of the gospel which an unsaved person can understand.
It is speaking about the deeper truths of the Bible. That is what Paul said they couldn't understand. He says it again just a few verses later:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.
--They were carnal Christians acting immaturely. They were not able to understand the deeper truths of the Word of God. That is what 2:14 is speaking about in context.

Do you believe the elect will not be saved?

Do you?
The verse in question was:
Or 1 Timothy 1:15:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
--The word "sinners" in context means more than just the "elect." It refers to all sinners. Christ came to seek and to save the lost. It is not referring to a select group of people. Christ never said that. You might notice that he never turned away anyone when they came to be healed. But that is not how your theology works.
According to Calvinism he should have turned away all the non-elect.

I think you do not understand election unto salvation...what the bible says about it.If you did you would never make these posts.

Rather I believe that most Calvinists have a perverted idea of what the Bible teaches on both election and the sovereignty of God.

.

If only the elect get saved then it is so DHK......how do you believe non elect sinners are saved???

Of course DHK....you sound surprised:laugh::laugh:

You laugh at this doctrine. It is a horrendous doctrine.
God, from eternity past, selects one group of people to be saved and live eternally in heaven. And then;
God, from eternity past, selects another group of people to be eternally damned in the Lake of fire--created just for that purpose, for nothing that they have done. Even if they hear and understand the gospel they are not permitted to receive it. They are eternally damned.
And you say God is pleased with this??
He is not!! I assure you of that! God is a God of love, not of hate and cruelty.

 

[OldRegular]

They know that Calvinism does not work - so they "preach the arminian gospel" when they want to convert the lost.

That is, to put it mildly, buffalo chips! Moreover it is stupid. It is neither Calvinism or Arminianism or Ms. White who saves. It is Jesus Christ who saves. Calvinism or Arminianism or semi-Pelaginism are simply attempts to explain the work of God and/or the work of man in salvation. The Biblical Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace, what some call Calvinism, best explain how God works in the Salvation of those who belong to Him.

{Of course for the disciples of Ms. White salvation is totally uncertain, awaiting the future investigative judgment.}

 

[OldRegular]

You are not a Calvinist OR.

You got it correct. I believe in the Doctrines of Sovereign Election and Grace. I don't call myself a Calvinist simply because Calvin held some doctrines on Baptism, the Lord's Supper, and Church governance with which I disagree. However, I believe that Calvin held to doctrines explaining the work of God and/or man in Salvation very much like those I believe.

I would add one other reason I reject the name Calvinism. It has become a pejorative because of people like you who have absolutely no understanding of the doctrine. Actually DHK you should be grateful that God did choose some to Salvation in Jesus Christ and provide the means whereby He could save them without compromising His righteousness otherwise none would be saved.


I would ask you a couple of questions DHK. How do you know that you are not one chosen from the foundation of the world unto Salvation in Jesus Christ? How do you know that God did not "new birth", that is regenerate you, before you believed?

 

[convicted1]

1 Peter 1:1-12 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)

"Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the choice sojourners of the dispersion of Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, according to a foreknowledge of God the Father, in sanctification of the Spirit, to obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace be multiplied! Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who, according to the abundance of His kindness did beget us again to a living hope, through the rising again of Jesus Christ out of the dead, to an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and unfading, reserved in the heavens for you, who, in the power of God are being guarded, through faith, unto salvation, ready to be revealed in the last time, in which ye are glad, a little now, if it be necessary, being made to sorrow in manifold trials, that the proof of your faith -- much more precious than of gold that is perishing, and through fire being approved -- may be found to praise, and honour, and glory, in the revelation of Jesus Christ, whom, not having seen, ye love, in whom, now not seeing and believing, ye are glad with joy unspeakable and glorified, receiving the end of your faith -- salvation of souls; concerning which salvation seek out and search out did prophets who concerning the grace toward you did prophecy, searching in regard to what or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ that was in them was manifesting, testifying beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glory after these, to whom it was revealed, that not to themselves, but to us they were ministering these, which now were told to you (through those who did proclaim good news to you,) in the Holy Spirit sent from heaven, to which things messengers do desire to bend looking."


Notice there is a certain folk in mind in regards to the foreknowledge of God. Now, you may say that Peter wrote this to the Jews and that's true. But it also goes out to the elect, those who compose the body of Christ, but Jew and Greek/Gentile.

The New Testament took effect after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection. Jesus had to die before His heirs could lay hold to it. Much like a last will and testament of people. It only takes effect after someone dies, and only those who are listed on that will take possession of what they left for them. Jesus did the same thing.....

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

But you have jumped right in here.

It was not a private message that I jumped into was it DHK?

I jump in when I see obvious false teaching.....:wavey:

The verse being responded to was John 3:16:
--There is no mention of "the elect" here.

There is no mention of born from above in vs 16 either,
no mention of sanctification
no mention of justification
no mention of adoption...

this is a foolish statement you make DHK.....everyone who believes=elect:thumbs:

It is a complete eisigetical butchering of the verse

says you

--a denial of the free will of man

.

free will does not exist...self will does

Whosoever believes in him will not perish.

The verse says everyone believing....

This is what the Calvinist denies over and over again.

Calvinists believe the scripture...everyone believing will be saved...

The belief that God from eternity past damns the wicked to the Lake of Fire with no opportunity to believe the gospel or even choose to believe the gospel is contradicted by John 3:16.

Jn 3:16 does not address that topic...speaking of eisegesis:thumbsup:

It also denies the love of God.

It declares the love of God to be found in His Son for everyone believing.

Could you explain how non elect persons"see"?

Anyone can see.

This is contradicted by many scriptures and at its root is a denial of the fall once again,you deny the fall into death of Adam.
you think he was only wounded and still has full ability contrary to scriptures .

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. Anyone "hearing" the Word of God can "see."

Not unless the Spirit allows them to.

You do not rightly divide the word of truth.

I understand how you feel this way DHK....your dispensational errors fall one by one when they are exposed to be error....so you lash out thinking this will change things
you are wrong on most things so you battle on each and every truth , coming from the wrong view each time
wrong on election, predestination, sanctification, eschatology,.that is why you get so frustrated in every thread.I understand:wavey:

1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
--Take heed to the context.
It is not speaking of the gospel which an unsaved person can understand.

You are simply wrong once again...how surprising!!! You do not understand this passage, if you did you would not struggle so mightily with the carnal Christian heresy......

It is not the deep things of God alone...it is the things of God...even the depths....
7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,

8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;

9 but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him --'

10 but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,

11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.

12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,

13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,

14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;

15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;

16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we -- we have the mind of Christ.


In the other thread I said you keep trying to drag people into your narrow fundy "box".{you objected}..here you do it once again.....you are trying to force the text to say what it does not.....but you do not care to learn the truth so you can force your wrong ideas on the text...playing the role of false teacher.

It is speaking about the deeper truths of the Bible. That is what Paul said they couldn't understand. He says it again just a few verses later:

1Co 3:1 And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.
1Co 3:2 I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able.

--They were carnal Christians acting immaturely

.

They were spiritual Christians acting as mere natural men...as men of flesh,,,as unsaved in this one sin.....If you would have listened to the sermons offered you , you would understand this and not commit the error you do.

They were not able to understand the deeper truths of the Word of God. That is what 2:14 is speaking about in context.

wrong...each time you post this...it is still error.

Do you?

The verse in question was:
Or 1 Timothy 1:15:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.

Yes...Jesus came into the world to save sinners DHK.....that is all this verse says...sinners.

--The word "sinners" in context means more than just the "elect."

It cannot DHK....as non elect persons do not get SAVED....the verse is speaking of sinners who get SAVED.....You cannot be that dense can you?
He came to SAVE sinners.....

not try and save sinners
not make sinners saveable, but save no one
He came to SAVE SINNERS.......multitudes of sinners......those who the Father gave to HIM.

It refers to all sinners.

Jesus does not save all sinners. This is a falsehood. IF this is what you teach then you are a false teacher. The bible does not teach that ALL SINNERS get saved...that is universalism, a falsehood and denial of scripture.

Christ came to seek and to save the lost. It is not referring to a select group of people. Christ never said that

.

Once again you are a false teacher no matter how you slice the pie....

seek and save the lost is from ezk 34, jn 10, lk 19 in scripture.

God says He is going to seek and save His sheep...Those the Father gave to Him, the seed of Abraham, not the seed of Adam....so again you are teaching falsehoods...someone teaching falsehoods..is a false teacher.

You might notice that he never turned away anyone when they came to be healed.

No one said He did...and that does not prove anything does it....Where are the nine???? physical healing was not always salvation also....Ten were healed , only one came back to Jesus , He asked where are the nine?

But that is not how your theology works.
According to Calvinism he should have turned away all the non-elect.

As long as you mock truth and make evil caricatures....you are never going to understand it. You will continue in your falsehoods.

Rather I believe that most Calvinists have a perverted idea of what the Bible teaches on both election and the sovereignty of God.

You believe that and are clueless on truth here because you mock at truth, God is not mocked, and His truth withstands all who scoff at it.
You use some of the words but evidently without understanding. You read truth presented to you and consistently reject men of God in sermons and in print putting truth before you.

Do you ask questions with a view to learn, or scoff, mck, mis-represent, and offer falsehood ?

You laugh at this doctrine. It is a horrendous doctrine.

Truth is not horrendous DHK....sorry you feel that way.

God, from eternity past, selects one group of people to be saved and live eternally in heaven.

God did not have to save anyone....if He saved only one that is His prerogative. That he sets His eternal love on a multitude , more than the sand of the sea, or the stars of heaven is a great mercy.

Are you the one and only DHK...going to dictate to God who he can or cannot save?
15 is it not lawful to me to do what I will in mine own? is thine eye evil because I am good?

And then;
God, from eternity past, selects another group of people to be eternally damned in the Lake of fire--created just for that purpose, for nothing that they have done.

Another wicked caricature of God and His truth, as if He was unjust in your eyes...this is horrible....your failure to grasp the fall and it's noetic effects on mankind leads to such a horrible idea.

Even if they hear and understand the gospel they are not permitted to receive it. They are eternally damned.

Give a biblical example of this foolish and evil statement. Show one responsible Cal who would post such a thing??? Show where God does not allow any who believe in truth to enter heaven.....you are off the deep end.

And you say God is pleased with this??
He is not!! I assure you of that! God is a God of love, not of hate and cruelty

.

Your posting and attack against God needs to be repented of. Show where any Calvinist teacher said anything like this...not just these evil accusations you invent in your mind.

 

[convicted1]

*****i goof*****

 

[convicted1]

DHK



It was not a private message that I jumped into was it DHK?

I jump in when I see obvious false teaching.....




There is no mention of born from above in vs 16 either,
no mention of sanctification
no mention of justification
no mention of adoption...

this is a foolish statement you make DHK.....everyone who believes=elect:thumbs:



says you
.

free will does not exist...self will does


The verse says everyone believing....


Calvinists believe the scripture...everyone believing will be saved...


Jn 3:16 does not address that topic...speaking of eisegesis:thumbsup:


It declares the love of God to be found in His Son for everyone believing.


Could you explain how non elect persons"see"?


This is contradicted by many scriptures and at its root is a denial of the fall once again,you deny the fall into death of Adam.
you think he was only wounded and still has full ability contrary to scriptures .



Not unless the Spirit allows them to.


I understand how you feel this way DHK....your dispensational errors fall one by one when they are exposed to be error....so you lash out thinking this will change things
you are wrong on most things so you battle on each and every truth , coming from the wrong view each time
wrong on election, predestination, sanctification, eschatology,.that is why you get so frustrated in every thread.I understand:wavey:




You are simply wrong once again...how surprising!!! You do not understand this passage, if you did you would not struggle so mightily with the carnal Christian heresy......

It is not the deep things of God alone...it is the things of God...even the depths....
7 but we speak the hidden wisdom of God in a secret, that God foreordained before the ages to our glory,

8 which no one of the rulers of this age did know, for if they had known, the Lord of the glory they would not have crucified;

9 but, according as it hath been written, `What eye did not see, and ear did not hear, and upon the heart of man came not up, what God did prepare for those loving Him --'

10 but to us did God reveal [them] through His Spirit, for the Spirit all things doth search, even the depths of God,

11 for who of men hath known the things of the man, except the spirit of the man that [is] in him? so also the things of God no one hath known, except the Spirit of God.

12 And we the spirit of the world did not receive, but the Spirit that [is] of God, that we may know the things conferred by God on us,

13 which things also we speak, not in words taught by human wisdom, but in those taught by the Holy Spirit, with spiritual things spiritual things comparing,

14 and the natural man doth not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for to him they are foolishness, and he is not able to know [them], because spiritually they are discerned;

15 and he who is spiritual, doth discern indeed all things, and he himself is by no one discerned;

16 for who did know the mind of the Lord that he shall instruct Him? and we -- we have the mind of Christ.


In the other thread I said you keep trying to drag people into your narrow fundy "box".{you objected}..here you do it once again.....you are trying to force the text to say what it does not.....but you do not care to learn the truth so you can force your wrong ideas on the text...playing the role of false teacher.

Do you?


Yes...Jesus came into the world to save sinners DHK.....that is all this verse says...sinners.


It cannot DHK....as non elect persons do not get SAVED....the verse is speaking of sinners who get SAVED.....You cannot be that dense can you?
He came to SAVE sinners.....

not try and save sinners
not make sinners saveable, but save no one
He came to SAVE SINNERS.......multitudes of sinners......those who the Father gave to HIM.


Jesus does not save all sinners. This is a falsehood. IF this is what you teach then you are a false teacher. The bible does not teach that ALL SINNERS get saved...that is universalism, a falsehood and denial of scripture.

.

Once again you are a false teacher no matter how you slice the pie....

seek and save the lost is from ezk 34, jn 10, lk 19 in scripture.

God says He is going to seek and save His sheep...Those the Father gave to Him, the seed of Abraham, not the seed of Adam....so again you are teaching falsehoods...someone teaching falsehoods..is a false teacher.


No one said He did...and that does not prove anything does it....Where are the nine???? physical healing was not always salvation also....Ten were healed , only one came back to Jesus , He asked where are the nine?


As long as you mock truth and make evil caricatures....you are never going to understand it. You will continue in your falsehoods.


You believe that and are clueless on truth here because you mock at truth, God is not mocked, and His truth withstands all who scoff at it.
You use some of the words but evidently without understanding. You read truth presented to you and consistently reject men of God in sermons and in print putting truth before you.

Do you ask questions with a view to learn, or scoff, mck, mis-represent, and offer falsehood ?


Truth is not horrendous DHK....sorry you feel that way.



God did not have to save anyone....if He saved only one that is His prerogative. That he sets His eternal love on a multitude , more than the sand of the sea, or the stars of heaven is a great mercy.

Are you the one and only DHK...going to dictate to God who he can or cannot save?
15 is it not lawful to me to do what I will in mine own? is thine eye evil because I am good?


Another wicked caricature of God and His truth, as if He was unjust in your eyes...this is horrible....your failure to grasp the fall and it's noetic effects on mankind leads to such a horrible idea.


Give a biblical example of this foolish and evil statement. Show one responsible Cal who would post such a thing??? Show where God does not allow any who believe in truth to enter heaven.....you are off the deep end.

.

Your posting and attack against God needs to be repented of. Show where any Calvinist teacher said anything like this...not just these evil accusations you invent in your mind.

 

[DHK]

DHK
There is no mention of born from above in vs 16 either,
no mention of sanctification
no mention of justification
no mention of adoption...

this is a foolish statement you make DHK.....everyone who believes=elect:thumbs:

Therefore there need not be any emphasis on "elect" but rather on "those who believe" as the verse says: "whosoever believes in him shall not perish..." Why read into the verse that which is not there. Isn't it odd that there are literally hundreds of verses throughout the Bible that OFFER salvation to ALL who will RECEIVE it. Christ gives an invitation to come. The will is always always involved.

free will does not exist...self will does

Man has a will. However the will must be exercised. When it is, a choice is made. What did Paul mean when he said:

Rom 7:18 ...for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
--You can wake up in the morning and "be willing to get up and make breakfast." But it is not going to happen unless you act on your will and choose to do it. Willingness is one thing. Acting on the will is even more important. This is what Paul said. How to perform that which is good, I find not. His will was there, but he wasn't performing what he wanted to do or willing to do.
Man is made in the image of God, and therefore has a will and is able to make a choice. This is Biblical teaching rather than Calvin-teaching.

The verse says everyone believing....

Icon's special translation??

Calvinists believe the scripture...everyone believing will be saved...

"Everyone believing..." Sounds like Wesleyanism or what you might call Arminianism. So, if you stop believing for one minute, have one doubt, you lose your salvation?? Is that what you mean by "everyone believing." I know you have "Icon's very special translation," but....

Jn 3:16 does not address that topic...speaking of eisegesis:thumbsup:

You are so right. It doesn't. But the Calvinist preaches reprobation from John 3:16 anyway. They redefine "world" to mean the elect. So what is the corollary?

It declares the love of God to be found in His Son for everyone believing.

The doctrine of reprobation does not declare the love of God in any way, shape, or form. It simply denies it.

Could you explain how non elect persons"see"?

Christ came to seek and to save the lost, those who could not see.
As "I once was lost but now am saved," the hymn writer said. He had heard the gospel, the Word of God, was convicted of his sin, and trusted Christ.
FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path.
Christ is the light of the world.

This is contradicted by many scriptures and at its root is a denial of the fall once again,you deny the fall into death of Adam.
you think he was only wounded and still has full ability contrary to scriptures

I said: "Anyone can see." Anyone can believe. Anyone can be saved.
Is the Christ you believe in so anemic that He can only save a very few people, and not able to save "whoever" comes to Him. Anyone can see. Anyone can come. Do you know how Hudson Taylor came to the Lord? He was sitting in a chair, picked up a tract and started to read it. Soon after he trusted Christ--by the reading of a tract. .

Not unless the Spirit allows them to.

Foolishness. That is as foolish as saying that the Holy Spirit deliberately keeps people out of church. He physically closes their hearing from the preacher. Nonsense.

I understand how you feel this way DHK....your dispensational errors fall one by one when they are exposed to be error....so you lash out thinking this will change things
you are wrong on most things so you battle on each and every truth , coming from the wrong view each time
wrong on election, predestination, sanctification, eschatology,.that is why you get so frustrated in every thread.I understand

This is what you say when you have no answer for the truth. You are very condescending with no answer. I am not frustrated. I do have the truth. The Calvinist position is wrong. So, go ahead and lash out. I understand that you cannot answer my post.

You are simply wrong once again...how surprising!!! You do not understand this passage, if you did you would not struggle so mightily with the carnal Christian heresy......

It is not the deep things of God alone...it is the things of God...even the depths....

I don't struggle with anything Icon. But you certainly have a hard time refuting what I post.
You have never been able to explain away 1Cor.3:1-5, where Paul speaks to Corinthian brethren as CARNAL. They are Carnal Christians. But you can call Paul a liar.

In the other thread I said you keep trying to drag people into your narrow fundy "box".{you objected}..here you do it once again.....you are trying to force the text to say what it does not.....but you do not care to learn the truth so you can force your wrong ideas on the text...playing the role of false teacher.

Notice the accusation of "false teacher" here.
Who is it that doesn't want to learn? Jesus invites people to come to him, and you say they can't. What a contradiction!

Yes...Jesus came into the world to save sinners DHK.....that is all this verse says...sinners.

Or 1 Timothy 1:15:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
--Yes, Paul wasn't talking of the elect. He was chief among sinners--all sinners.

It cannot DHK....as non elect persons do not get SAVED....the verse is speaking of sinners who get SAVED.....You cannot be that dense can you?
He came to SAVE sinners.....

If you believe like SBM does, he came to save the Regenerated.
Most Calvinists believe you must believe one must be regenerated before they can be saved. SBM believes that regeneration takes place before the foundation of the world. You guys can't get your act together.

not try and save sinners
not make sinners saveable, but save no one
He came to SAVE SINNERS.......multitudes of sinners......those who the Father gave to HIM.

The Father gave all who came to Him and believed on Him. That is who was given.

Jesus does not save all sinners. This is a falsehood. IF this is what you teach then you are a false teacher. The bible does not teach that ALL SINNERS get saved...that is universalism, a falsehood and denial of scripture.

I never said he did. He saves those who believe on his name. Check John 20:31.

Once again you are a false teacher no matter how you slice the pie....

seek and save the lost is from ezk 34, jn 10, lk 19 in scripture.

God says He is going to seek and save His sheep...Those the Father gave to Him, the seed of Abraham, not the seed of Adam....so again you are teaching falsehoods...someone teaching falsehoods..is a false teacher.

Parables were not meant to teach doctrine but to illustrate doctrine already taught. Christ said: "Come unto me all ye.."
Whosoever believes on me shall have everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation...
I am the resurrection and the life, whosoever believes in me...
I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me.
I am the door...
He that takes of the water that I give shall never thirst again.
I am the light of the world, he that follows after me..
--He was speaking to the world. He was speaking to whoever would follow him. To whoever would believe in him.
--No, I am not the one teaching false doctrine, but you are making false accusations.

You use some of the words but evidently without understanding. You read truth presented to you and consistently reject men of God in sermons and in print putting truth before you.

Show one responsible Cal who would post such a thing??? Show where God does not allow any who believe in truth to enter heaven.....you are off the deep end.

Your posting and attack against God needs to be repented of. Show where any Calvinist teacher said anything like this...not just these evil accusations you invent in your mind.

You don't believe what your own fellow Calvinists believe.
I will quote a fellow reformer for you:

The doctrine of absolute Predestination of course logically holds that some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life. The very terms "elect" and "election" imply the terms "non-elect" and "reprobation." When some are chosen out others are left not chosen. The high privileges and glorious destiny of the former are not shared with the latter. This, too, is of God. We believe that from all eternity God has intended to leave some of Adam's posterity in their sins, and that the decisive factor in the life of each is to be found only in God's will. As Mozley has said, the whole race after the fall was "one mass of perdition," and "it pleased God of His sovereign mercy to rescue some and to leave others where they were; to raise some to glory, giving them such grace as necessarily qualified them for it, and abandon the rest, from whom He withheld such grace, to eternal punishments.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html
This doctrine, as I said, is evil. This is not the God of love of the Bible describes. It is a horrible doctrine.

 

[Iconoclast]

DHK

Therefore there need not be any emphasis on "elect" but rather on "those who believe" as the verse says: "whosoever believes in him shall not perish..."

either way is okay as those who believe demonstrate their election.

Why read into the verse that which is not there.

It is there.
When any verse is used or explained the word of God does not contradict itself.
In other words....it presupposes God, the trinity, the Covenants, Heaven, Hell,

the teaching does not go away because each individual verse does not mention it......

also....people such as yourself want it to say or teach what it does not....

simple question;

Does it speak of every single person who ever lived?
or
Does it speak of everyone believing?

Isn't it odd that there are literally hundreds of verses throughout the Bible that OFFER salvation to ALL who will RECEIVE it. Christ gives an invitation to come. The will is always always involved

.

No...it is not "odd" but it is very merciful,and great.:thumbsup:

Man has a will. However the will must be exercised. When it is, a choice is made. What did Paul mean when he said:

man does have a will and makes choices...yes he does

Man is made in the image of God, and therefore has a will and is able to make a choice. This is Biblical teaching rather than Calvin-teaching.

Cals teach this also.

Icon's special translation??

AA and others have told you what it is.It is what the verse literally says...you stubbornly refuse to own up to it, and then not only that, but you now try and portray me as the one who is mistaken.....good job DHK!

Then you wonder why my responses are as you describe them when you provoke the response you get.

"Everyone believing..." Sounds like Wesleyanism or what you might call Arminianism.

That is what the text is...It does not matter what it sounds like:thumbsup:

So, if you stop believing for one minute, have one doubt, you lose your salvation?? Is that what you mean by "everyone believing." I know you have "Icon's very special translation," but....

Most of the sermons I listen to are by men who study the texts of scripture in greek and Hebrew.

They break a text down by word order, and more importantly by the tenses of the gk language.

This text says everyone believing.....and continuing on in that belief...The initial belief happens at a point in time, however it continues on into the future.

Is that too much for you to grasp DHK?
no false decision , no backslider, no carnal Christian,...no...just real believers.

The doctrine of reprobation does not declare the love of God in any way, shape, or form. It simply denies it.

The doctrine of reprobation is a biblical doctrine that defines the boundaries of God's love. The love of God is only found In Christ

end of pt1

 

[Iconoclast]

pt2
you were asked this question-

Could you explain how non elect persons"see"?

Christ came to seek and to save the lost, those who could not see.

this does not answer the question

As "I once was lost but now am saved," the hymn writer said.

what the hymn writer said does not answer the question

He had heard the gospel, the Word of God, was convicted of his sin, and trusted Christ.

that would mean he was elected to salvation....the question to you is HOW DO ANY NON ELECT PERSONS SEE?

FAITH comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.
Thy word is a lamp unto my feet, a light unto my path.
Christ is the light of the world.

these are all true...but do not answer the question

I said: "Anyone can see." Anyone can believe. Anyone can be saved.

you did say that.....Jesus taught otherwise;
39 Therefore they could not believe, because that Esaias said again,40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

41 These things said Esaias, when he saw his glory, and spake of him.

Is the Christ you believe in so anemic that He can only save a very few people, and not able to save "whoever" comes to Him

.

The biblical Christ saves all the Father gives to Him.....no more, no less....He is not willing that any of them perish, but that all come to repentance. His cross work actually accomplished complete salvation for those elected to it..

Anyone can see. Anyone can come.

you say that Dhk - Jesus says ...No man can, unless the Father which has sent me draw him. I will believe Jesus rather than the false musings of uncle dhk.

Do you know how Hudson Taylor came to the Lord? He was sitting in a chair, picked up a tract and started to read it. Soon after he trusted Christ--by the reading of a tract.

.
God's providence and drawing work on display.

Foolishness. That is as foolish as saying that the Holy Spirit deliberately keeps people out of church. He physically closes their hearing from the preacher. Nonsense.

Your post is the only nonsense here. Sorry to confuse you with more scripture DHK;
you are denying the unseen work of the Holy Spirit as described in Jn3.....Could it be that you have no firsthand experience of this?
How else could you utter such a statement denying the supernatural work of God?

25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

26 Even so, Father: for so it seemed good in thy sight.

27 All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

This is what you say when you have no answer for the truth. You are very condescending with no answer. I am not frustrated. I do have the truth. The Calvinist position is wrong. So, go ahead and lash out. I understand that you cannot answer my post.

you do not like my answers but they are on target...take a poll if you want, others seem to think they answer you...maybe you should re-read them.

I don't struggle with anything Icon. But you certainly have a hard time refuting what I post.

I do not agree...

You have never been able to explain away 1Cor.3:1-5, where Paul speaks to Corinthian brethren as CARNAL

.

I just explain it, no need to explain it away.

They are Carnal Christians.

there is no such thing....they are spiritual as are all Christians but acting as if they were natural carnal persons in this one sin.

But you can call Paul a liar.

not at all...you maybe, but not Paul.

Notice the accusation of "false teacher" here.

you have earned that title by consistent falsehood-
James 3

3 My brethren, be not many masters, knowing that we shall receive the greater condemnation.
you have much error....

Who is it that doesn't want to learn? Jesus invites people to come to him, and you say they can't. What a contradiction!

I just post scripture ...

Or 1 Timothy 1:15:
This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief.
--Yes, Paul wasn't talking of the elect. He was chief among sinners--all sinners.

strange that he wrote this then;
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory

If you believe like SBM does, he came to save the Regenerated.

sbm speaks for himself....ask him...my beliefs are closer to O.R., rippon, reformed, con 1,jbh,rl bosley,etc.

Most Calvinists believe you must believe one must be regenerated before they can be saved

.

regeneration and conversion happen at the same time.....a person can be drawn and convicted for a long time, but at one point in time the Spirit quickens them.

SBM believes that regeneration takes place before the foundation of the world. You guys can't get your act together.

He must answer for himself....he uses many good verses, but you all gang up on him and he gets flustered. I do not shoot wounded soldiers dhk...I think he does not express what he believes clearly sometimes, and I have seen him express some error.
He does not ask me anything, so I figure he has other posters in mind.

Parables were not meant to teach doctrine but to illustrate doctrine already taught.

agreed

Christ said: "Come unto me all ye.."
Whosoever believes on me shall have everlasting life and shall not come into condemnation...
I am the resurrection and the life, whosoever believes in me...
I am the way, the truth and the life, no man comes to the Father but by me.
I am the door...
He that takes of the water that I give shall never thirst again.
I am the light of the world, he that follows after me..
--He was speaking to the world. He was speaking to whoever would follow him. To whoever would believe in him.

I agree with this. Nothing I believe makes it otherwise...it does not have to.

--No, I am not the one teaching false doctrine, but you are making false accusations.

you are getting worse, not better. I am just a messenger .

You don't believe what your own fellow Calvinists believe.

That might be. They might be smarter than I am. They might be more gifted. If they offer biblical correction I will consider it and if need be take heed. It is not about ego DHK...it is about truth.


I will quote a fellow reformer for you:

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html
This doctrine, as I said, is evil. This is not the God of love of the Bible describes. It is a horrible doctrine.[/QUOTE]

Good quote....it describes the God of jn 3:16 as well as jn 17:1-3

 

[DHK]

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html
This doctrine, as I said, is evil. This is not the God of love of the Bible describes. It is a horrible doctrine.

Good quote....it describes the God of jn 3:16 as well as jn 17:1-3[/QUOTE]
Yes it is a good quote. Look at it again;

The doctrine of absolute Predestination of course logically holds that some are foreordained to death as truly as others are foreordained to life. The very terms "elect" and "election" imply the terms "non-elect" and "reprobation." When some are chosen out others are left not chosen. The high privileges and glorious destiny of the former are not shared with the latter. This, too, is of God. We believe that from all eternity God has intended to leave some of Adam's posterity in their sins, and that the decisive factor in the life of each is to be found only in God's will. As Mozley has said, the whole race after the fall was "one mass of perdition," and "it pleased God of His sovereign mercy to rescue some and to leave others where they were; to raise some to glory, giving them such grace as necessarily qualified them for it, and abandon the rest, from whom He withheld such grace, to eternal punishments.

It was already stated: "God is a God of love to the elect."
The question is: Is God a God of love to the non-elect? Yes or no?
I think that the answer is obvious.

That is what makes this a horrendous evil doctrine.
The Bible teaches that God is love to all men, not just a select few.

 

[Baptist4life]

My take on Calvinism.......

 

[Iconoclast]

Good quote....it describes the God of jn 3:16 as well as jn 17:1-3

Yes it is a good quote. Look at it again;

It was already stated: "God is a God of love to the elect."
The question is: Is God a God of love to the non-elect? Yes or no?
I think that the answer is obvious.

That is what makes this a horrendous evil doctrine.
The Bible teaches that God is love to all men, not just a select few.[/QUOTE

]

How does God love men...outside of Christ.

The bible says the love of God is found In Christ.

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.


see the context and the location of the love?
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.