Featured Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

God speaking to the spiritually dead doesn't, in and of itself, guarantee salvation. If that were the case, Satan wouldn't be where he's at right now. It has to do with the changing of the will. Only God changing one's will guarantees salvation. God's changing of one's will causes them to have acceptance, a postive response, to the gospel. God spoke directly to Satan and it didn't make him in accord with God. Why? His will wasn't changed by God, thereby, negating any positive response. God now speaks to us via the written word and gospel. If He doesn't change one's will, they'll never positively respond to it...

 

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/boettner/predest.iv.iii.v.html
Read carefully.
God will not; cannot; act upon the non-elect. This horrible doctrine is not Biblical. The non-elect don't even have the will to believe. It is taken away from them. They are separated from God for all eternity, spiritually dead whether they like it or not, chosen to be in the Lake of Fire before the foundation of the world. That is Calvinism.

 

Absolute predestination is something most Calvinists don't agree with.

God chose out of an already fallen race those He gave to the Lamb.

Absolute predestination is not predestination...two entirely different subjects...

 

I did. May I suggest that you did not?

God can do whatever he pleases. If he chooses to not do something (elect some in this case) that is his right and who are you to say he cannot? Choosing not to act and elect some, is not to say that God cannot elect. You are, again, confused.

That is not in the quote you provided. Again, you are simply mishandling or misrepresenting what is said.

Also, this has zip to do with God having a conversation with the spiritually dead. You are, badly, confusing your categories.

 

By observation, most accept the Westminster Confession of Faith.
Icon has quoted from it many times.

http://www.reformed.org/documents/wcf_with_proofs/

It is the simple doctrine of predestination that is described here. And as described here, it is not described in the Word of God. This is indeed is held by most Calvinists.

 

Are you claiming that Calvinists don't know Calvinism??

in Christ,

Bob

 

There are many things God cannot do. He cannot lie. He cannot do those things which are against his nature. He cannot go against His Word.
I am not confused, but the Calvinist is. He proposes a theology that contradicts itself. Obviously, if man is predestined from eternity past to be of the non-elect, reprobate, to end up in the lake of God, then God cannot change his mind. It has so been decreed. The non-elect have no choice in the matter. Read your Calvinistic theologies. This, of course, is not my theology. But according to the Calvinist it must be so. It is truly incredible that any one person, much less multitudes should believe such erroneous theology.

The non-elect are spiritually dead. As SBM keeps pointing out, they are spiritually dead. They cannot respond. They are blind. They will never respond to the gospel. They are elected to the Lake of Fire. They can't have a conversation with God. They are of the non-elect--all of this coming from the Calvinist point of view.
I am simply pointing out the inconsistencies of such a position.

 

Here's whay you're missing, I'm afraid...

God chose out of an already fallen state those He gave to the Lamb. He did no injustice to those who were already fallen. God would still be holy, just, good, love, impeccable if He chose not to save even one of us, Adam and Eve included. This is where mercy is shown in that He chose a # that no man can # to give to His Son.


But He chose us out of an already fallen state...if He had left us there, it would not be an injustice to us, because we were already headed to hell to begin with...

That's where passages such as Exodus 9 and Romans 9 'click'...Pharaoh was already headed to hell, and God did him no injustice in raising him up to show His power....

 

God created Adam and Eve. There was no sin in them. He created them with a will to choose between good and evil. They choose to rebel against God. They had the will to choose either one. Man still has that same choice today. He may have a depraved nature, but he still can choose good.
If one takes away the choice to choose to do good, then it is only logical to say that he cannot choose evil either. He can choose. He has that ability, as Paul states in Romans 7:18.

According to Calvinism he didn't choose out of an "already fallen state." He chose before the foundation of the world. That is what makes this doctrine so horrible. That for no reason of their own, he condemned "the non-elect" to an eternity of hell-fire--having done neither good nor bad.

We are all condemned to hell. Those of us who accept God's merciful and gracious offer of His gift of salvation will go to heaven. It is Christ that paid the penalty for our sins. God did not simply pick some to be saved and others to be lost. The basis of our salvation is:
1. The penalty that Christ paid on the cross.
2. Our faith in receiving that gift--for by grace are ye saved through faith.

 

Of course. I didn't mean to imply that something sinful was possible for God. I wouldn't think that was necessary to explain on a Christian forum.

Yes God made a choice. That does not mean that he could not have made another choice. I was simply responding to your false statement that God could not have acted differently toward the non-elect.

Also, you act as if God is condemning people who really want to be saved. Nonsense! Hell is locked from the inside! If the angels of God were to go to the gates of hell 10 million years after the final judgment and say to those there, "You are free to leave as long as you fall down and worship and love God." They would slam the doors shut and respond, "We'd rather rot in hell!" You completely fail to see just how bad the fall corrupted human nature.

Why? That's a non-sequitur. Again, you show that you really don't seem to understand what you are talking about. I'm sorry but that's just the way it is. And your increasing (it seems) hatred of Calvinism seems to be blinding you from learning.

Election and spiritual life/death are regarding salvation not God speaking to them. In the end, all people will see God and speak to him face to face, elect or not, spiritually alive or dead. Some will hear, "well done" and some will hear "depart" but all will have a conversation with God.

 

Adam and Eve were the only ones made upright/sinless. When they sinned, that curse passed upon all mankind. We were born in a sinful state, and most definately not upright/sinless. Our nature was affected by the fall of Adam.

There's a will involved...self will. Our will has to be changed, bent towards God...

Ephesians 1:4 states from the foundation of the world...

If Christ paid for everyone's sins everyone's saved. God's wrath was appeased, no wrath, no punishment to be meted out. That's cruel to cast those in hell who Christ paid their sin debt in full. That makes God cruel....

 

Can you name a three scriptures that shows us this changing of the will

 

Why?
Because the Westminster Confession of Faith, representative of Calvinist theology says so. That is why.

They cannot respond to God and vice versa. That is not what the Bible teaches, but it is what Calvinism teaches. No such decree or teaching is found in the scriptures.

 

Amen! :applause:

 

:BangHead::BangHead::BangHead:
You must be intentionally ignoring the topic at hand. You can't be that dense. Are you Winman reincarnated???

 

:thumbsup:

The Father imposed His wrath due unto, and the Son underwent punishment for, either:

1. All the sins of all men.
2. All the sins of some men, or
3. Some of the sins of all men.

In which case it may be said:

1. That if the last be true, all men have some sins to answer for, and so, none are saved.
2. That if the second be true, then Christ, in their stead suffered for all the sins of all the elect in the whole world, and this is the truth.
3. But if the first be the case, why are not all men free from the punishment due unto their sins?

You answer, "Because of unbelief."

I ask, Is this unbelief a sin, or is it not? If it be, then Christ suffered the punishment due unto it, or He did not. If He did, why must that hinder them more than their other sins for which He died? If He did not, He did not die for all their sins!"

- John Owen

 

Ezekiel 11:19, 36:26, Jer. 31:33, Heb. 8:10 & 10:16...

All these verses deal with the hearts of man. From the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks(Matt. 12:34 & Luke 6:45). If from the heart that defiles a man(Matt. 15:11). When God changes the heart, He also changes the will...

 

It was not so affected that man, of his own will, cannot seek God, choose God, or even repent. God doesn't command the unsaved to do those things which are impossible for him to do.
Acts 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:
1 Chronicles 16:11 Seek the LORD and his strength, seek his face continually.
Psalms 105:4 Seek the LORD, and his strength: seek his face evermore.
Isaiah 55:6 Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near:

Scripture does not teach that man cannot freely choose God. Man is not a robot, forced to do God's will. This is a Calvinist concept that is not biblical. God has given man a will, for he is made in God's image. He chooses either to receive or reject Christ.

I already went through the first half of this chapter. This verse is written to Christians, about Christians, and never for a moment has the non-elect in mind.

Nonsense!

Yes, you are right. That is what make Calvinism so cruel. Their sins are all paid for, and yet they are doomed to hell anyway. The onus is on them to reject or receive the gift of salvation that Christ paid for. It is not automatic.

 

I tried.....

 

OK you have shown scripture changing the heart. I asked for scripture changing the will.