Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[savedbymercy]

The world of 2Cor 5 is not destroyed for all of its sin. yet.

Probation for the world is still ongoing.



The unreconciled already saved?

A statement never found in all of scripture.

Really? that is where extreme inference leads you?

Not one text says that "you are unreconciled though already saved"

Rather 2Cor 5 argues for you to choose to be reconciled to God because in that reconciliation you get the benefit of the Atonement.

Without it - you have nothing.

Without choosing to be reconciled you have --


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]


in Christ,

Bob

The world in 2 Cor 5:19 has no sin charged to it, no penalty of sin, it is a Justified world from all sin. It's reconciled to God and shall be saved by Christ life Rom 5:10 !

 

[BobRyan]

The world in 2 Cor 5:19 has no sin charged to it, no penalty of sin, it is a Justified world from all sin. It's reconciled to God and shall be saved by Christ life Rom 5:10 !

You propose a "close your eyes to the Bible" solution of the form

So then God "Came to His OWN and His own were of course saved and already forgiven - and receive Him". that "pleases Him"

God "did not lament or ask what MORE could I have done" - that lament would not please Him.

God "So loved the World and so He so saved the World, the the whole world Pleases God - end of story". That pleases Him.

==============================================

Instead of those fictions we find --


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

 

[savedbymercy]

You propose a "close your eyes to the Bible" solution of the form

So then God "Came to His OWN and His own were of course saved and already forgiven - and receive Him". that "pleases Him"

God "did not lament or ask what MORE could I have done" - that lament would not please Him.

God "So loved the World and so He so saved the World, the the whole world Pleases God - end of story". That pleases Him.

==============================================

Instead of those fictions we find --


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

The World of 2 Cor 5:19 it's a Saved World, God does not charge it with any sins, so it's a made righteous World ! But many shall be punished for their sins Eph 5:6 ! They are not part of the World of 2 Cor 5:19 !

 

[Iconoclast]

The World of 2 Cor 5:19 it's a Saved World, God does not charge it with any sins, so it's a made righteous World ! But many shall be punished for their sins Eph 5:6 ! They are not part of the World of 2 Cor 5:19 !

"Children who practice self-indulgence (masturbation) previous to puberty, or the period of merging into manhood or womanhood, must pay the penalty of nature's violated laws at that critical period. Many sink into an early grave, while others have sufficient force of constitution to pass this ordeal. If the practice is continued from the age of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system, and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. Some of nature's fine machinery gives way, leaving a heavier task for the remaining to perform, which disorders nature's fine arrangement, and there is often a sudden breaking down of the constitution; and death is the result." (Solemn Appeal, 1870, p.63).

"They do not realize the exceeding sinfulness of this degrading sin, which is enervating the system and destroying their brain nerve power." (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p.347).

"He had practiced self-abuse until he was a mere wreck of humanity. This vice was shown me as an abomination in the sight of God. The results of self-abuse in them is seen in various diseases, such as catarrh, dropsy, headache, loss of memory and sight, great weakness in the back and loins, affections of the spine, the head often decays inwardly. Cancerous humor, which would lay dormant in the system their life-time, is inflamed, and commences its eating, destructive work. The mind is often utterly ruined, and insanity takes place." (Appeal to Mothers, 1864, pp.25, 27).

 

[steaver]

"Children who practice self-indulgence (masturbation) previous to puberty, or the period of merging into manhood or womanhood, must pay the penalty of nature's violated laws at that critical period. Many sink into an early grave, while others have sufficient force of constitution to pass this ordeal. If the practice is continued from the age of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system, and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. Some of nature's fine machinery gives way, leaving a heavier task for the remaining to perform, which disorders nature's fine arrangement, and there is often a sudden breaking down of the constitution; and death is the result." (Solemn Appeal, 1870, p.63).

"They do not realize the exceeding sinfulness of this degrading sin, which is enervating the system and destroying their brain nerve power." (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p.347).

"He had practiced self-abuse until he was a mere wreck of humanity. This vice was shown me as an abomination in the sight of God. The results of self-abuse in them is seen in various diseases, such as catarrh, dropsy, headache, loss of memory and sight, great weakness in the back and loins, affections of the spine, the head often decays inwardly. Cancerous humor, which would lay dormant in the system their life-time, is inflamed, and commences its eating, destructive work. The mind is often utterly ruined, and insanity takes place." (Appeal to Mothers, 1864, pp.25, 27).

Icon, is your reason for posting EGW's beliefs an attempt to discredit Bob's argument for every point he brings up in the Scripture? What then when Bob declares God is Triune? Will you argue against him on this also because he is an SDA? Look, you are a Calvinist, but this does not mean you have no understanding of all of scripture, just the TULI parts. So bringing up EGW is only revealing you are frustrated for not being able to give a solid argument against his expositions. And we understand why this is, Calvinist must look at scripture through the TULIP lens, it cannot be objective and just deal with what is clearly written.

 

[Iconoclast]

You propose a "close your eyes to the Bible" solution of the form

So then God "Came to His OWN and His own were of course saved and already forgiven - and receive Him". that "pleases Him"

God "did not lament or ask what MORE could I have done" - that lament would not please Him.

God "So loved the World and so He so saved the World, the the whole world Pleases God - end of story". That pleases Him.

==============================================

Instead of those fictions we find --


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

A reminder from your prophetess...
"Children who practice self-indulgence (masturbation) previous to puberty, or the period of merging into manhood or womanhood, must pay the penalty of nature's violated laws at that critical period. Many sink into an early grave, while others have sufficient force of constitution to pass this ordeal. If the practice is continued from the age of fifteen and upward, nature will protest against the abuse she has suffered, and continues to suffer, and will make them pay the penalty for the transgression of her laws, especially from the ages of thirty to forty-five, by numerous pains in the system, and various diseases, such as affection of the liver and lungs, neuralgia, rheumatism, affection of the spine, diseased kidneys, and cancerous humors. Some of nature's fine machinery gives way, leaving a heavier task for the remaining to perform, which disorders nature's fine arrangement, and there is often a sudden breaking down of the constitution; and death is the result." (Solemn Appeal, 1870, p.63).

"They do not realize the exceeding sinfulness of this degrading sin, which is enervating the system and destroying their brain nerve power." (Testimonies, Vol. 2, p.347).

"He had practiced self-abuse until he was a mere wreck of humanity. This vice was shown me as an abomination in the sight of God. The results of self-abuse in them is seen in various diseases, such as catarrh, dropsy, headache, loss of memory and sight, great weakness in the back and loins, affections of the spine, the head often decays inwardly. Cancerous humor, which would lay dormant in the system their life-time, is inflamed, and commences its eating, destructive work. The mind is often utterly ruined, and insanity takes place." (Appeal to Mothers, 1864, pp.25, 27).

 

[Iconoclast]

Icon, is your reason for posting EGW's beliefs an attempt to discredit Bob's argument for every point he brings up in the Scripture? What then when Bob declares God is Triune? Will you argue against him on this also because he is an SDA? Look, you are a Calvinist, but this does not mean you have no understanding of all of scripture, just the TULI parts. So bringing up EGW is only revealing you are frustrated for not being able to give a solid argument against his expositions. And we understand why this is, Calvinist must look at scripture through the TULIP lens, it cannot be objective and just deal with what is clearly written.

No Steaver,

If Bob can cut and paste his own quote which has been refuted over and over, then I believe it is fitting to quote his mentor and spiritual leader over and over again as she feared her followers would have memory loss.....

Steaver, would you like to pay me 20$ everytime Bob quotes his post over and over.....you seem to have no trouble with him doing that, why is that Steaver????

here is another;
13."Cheese should never be introduced into the stomach'' (Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 68).
14."It is just as much sin to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the Ten Commandments'' ([eating a slice of bacon is as sinful as committing adultery] Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 70).

 

[steaver]

Steaver, would you like to pay me 20$ everytime Bob quotes his post over and over.....you seem to have no trouble with him doing that, why is that Steaver????

No, but let's get back to the OP sermon. Could you find a part you disagree with and tell my why? It seems no Calvinist so far find s fault with it, well, Willis did, but then he changed his mind and posted a :thumbsup:

 

[steaver]

here is another;
13."Cheese should never be introduced into the stomach'' (Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 68).
14."It is just as much sin to violate the laws of our being as to break one of the Ten Commandments'' ([eating a slice of bacon is as sinful as committing adultery] Testimonies to the Church, Vol. 2, page 70).

EGW was obviously no prophet from God and it boggles the mind why anyone would give her "revelations" any consideration at all as being guided by God. However, it has nothing to do with these debates. I believe SDA exists because it is human nature to gather together with kin folk and close friends, and it is very difficult to oppose family. They go along to get along so to speak. Certainly if they really took an honest look at this woman they would run away fast from her teachings...

 

[plain_n_simple]

"In closing let me congratulate those here who God has caused to believe the Gospel/TULIP. God loves you very much and has forgiven all your sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. And for those here tonight who do not believe, you deserve the eternal hell God is going to send you to because you refuse to believe and God hates you. I offer no condolences, for what God hates I must hate, and whom God hates I must hate also, for I am called to be holy as my Father in heaven is holy."

That is about all you can say, or the Cal can say abt their belief.

 

[convicted1]

I know it's a bit nitpicky, but what do you make of these scriptures:

and

The key word is 'formed' and not 'created'. God forms that which we create via intercourse.

Ostensibly those scriptures argue that God knew us before birth, and even had some input, however much is a matter of debate, in forming us in the womb.

Again, the key word is 'formed' and not 'created'....

What if you believe in an atonement that is offered universally, but is either accepted or rejected by those to whom it is offered? Does that still make someone a universalist? Fact is, you simply cannot reconcile the Universalist theology with the scriptures.

I will give you a passage to chew on.....


"For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me. Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil; And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage."(Heb. 2:11-15)

I see a passage where it shows Christ and His sheep as one. As it states in Col. 3:3, "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God." God now sees us through His Son, Jesus Christ. We live only because He lives(John 14:19). For the One who sanctifies and those who are sanctified are one, that shows me a definite atonement for a definite people, His sheep.

Then pay close attention to those key words 'deliver them who through fear of death'. Not everyone fears death, eternal death, thinking there's no way a loving God would cast them into hell. Here's a passage to support this thought...


"As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes."(Rom. 3:10-18)



Then here's another passage to chew on.....


"Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."(Heb. 10:7-14)


Now, it shows here that Jesus' death sanctified sinners. If He did taste death for everyone without exception, then you have a bunch, a myriad of sanctified people being cast into hell daily. That's why His death had a definite people in mind, imo....



Brother Tony, you can read all through Hebrews about how Jesus became the High Priest, the Mediator betwixt man and God. Look at how Aaron performed that duty. He sacrificed for Israel only. He wasn't the mediator for the Hittites, Philistines, Jebusites, Perizzites, Edomites, et al, but Israel only. Israel was a type, a picture of the church. Aaron performed his priestly duties for Israel only...in the same fashion as Christ did, and does, the church....

 

[convicted1]

Gen4:1 - "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD."

That doesn't disprove my statement that God didn't create us. God made Adam from the dust, and Eve from Adam's rib. Were you created from the dust, rib, or via intercourse?

 

[steaver]

That doesn't disprove my statement that God didn't create us. God made Adam from the dust, and Eve from Adam's rib. Were you created from the dust, rib, or via intercourse?

Brother, you are waaaay off on this stance you have taken trying to make it a difference. God doesn't distinguish between created and formed, why are you?

Gen1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

Gen2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen2:8 - And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen2:3 - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Gen2:19 - And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Here is a good one for ya...

Prov26:10 - The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors. :tongue3:

Sorry, but seriously, there is no difference between created and formed, just read God's own words.

 

[convicted1]

Brother, you are waaaay off on this stance you have taken trying to make it a difference. God doesn't distinguish between created and formed, why are you?

Gen1:27 - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them

Gen2:7 - And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Gen2:8 - And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

Gen2:3 - And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

Gen2:19 - And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof.

Here is a good one for ya...

Prov26:10 - The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors. :tongue3:

Sorry, but seriously, there is no difference between created and formed, just read God's own words.

God made Adam from the dust and Eve from his rib. We are formed via intercourse, sperm and egg....anatomy 101...

 

[steaver]

God made Adam from the dust and Eve from his rib. We are formed via intercourse, sperm and egg....anatomy 101...

Hmmmm, let's see, Willis word....God Word....Willis word....God Word......

Think I'll stick with the bible on this one.

 

[BobRyan]

You just dont believe the Truth. The World in 2 Cor 5:19 does not have any sins charged to it. That in and of itself means saved from the penalty and consequences of sin ! So Vs 20 is an appeal to the already saved, not to the Lost !

Until you toss out "extreme inference" and read the Bible regarding the "sequence" that results in salvation.

[FONT=&quot]Here is yet another teaching of Christ to be avoided by those who reject the fact that evidence and the drawing of God leads men to salvation

John 12
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34 The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35 So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”

John 20
27 Then He *said to Thomas, “Reach here with your finger, and see My hands; and reach here your hand and put it into My side; and do not be unbelieving, but believing.” 28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!” 29 Jesus *said to him, “Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed.” 30 Therefore many other signs Jesus also performed in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book; 31 but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.

==================== note

BOTH Calvinists and Arminians agree that the lost do not "please God" but where we differ is that Arminians believe the "Lost are part of the WORLD" and that "God so LOVED the (lost) World that HE Gave... yes really -- that WHOSOEVER believes on Him might not perish but have everlasting life... yes really" John 3:16

Paul says the gospel is going to the unsaved in Romans 11 " 14 if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellow countrymen and save some of them."

The God of the Bible "came to seek and save the lost". Luke 19:10, Matt 18:11


The very sequence Calvinism objects to is found there - "light shining out of darkness" and those who are lost being converted in the very sequence identified by Paul - the same author -- writing to the Romans.

Romans 10 “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart”—that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, 9 that if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.

The very sequence Calvinism forbids - the Bible affirms! The gospel goes to the lost - those who are not saved, and not at all righteous -- and then -
"with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation."

Without all the "extreme inference" injected into 2Cor 4 - this all works just fine.

Calvinism "dies a thousand deaths" in the pages of scripture.[/FONT]

 

[BobRyan]

No Steaver,

If Bob can cut and paste his own quote which has been refuted over and over, .

Just not in real life.

In fact only SavedByMercy has tried to solve this problem for Calvinists - #58 and her solution was "toss out the Bible texts" that are so offensive to Calvinism - simply don't read them!! #24

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

You propose a "close your eyes to the Bible" solution of the form

So then God "Came to His OWN and His own were of course saved and already forgiven - and receive Him". that "pleases Him"

God "did not lament or ask what MORE could I have done" - that lament would not please Him.

God "So loved the World and so He so saved the World, the the whole world Pleases God - end of story". That pleases Him.

==============================================

Instead of those fictions we find --


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

A reminder from your prophetess...
.

When Calvinists "need" to avoid the Bible - to put the Bible on "ignore" they can be "soooo creative"!!

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

EGW was obviously no prophet from God and it boggles the mind why anyone would give her "revelations" any consideration at all as being guided by God. However, it has nothing to do with these debates. I believe SDA exists because it is human nature to gather together with kin folk and close friends, and it is very difficult to oppose family. They go along to get along so to speak. Certainly if they really took an honest look at this woman they would run away fast from her teachings...

I have opened the perfect thread #1 on Jan 13, 2015-- over on the other denominations section for those who feel it necessary to attack the Seventh-day Adventist denomination.

Not sure why we have to keep seeing these off-topic posts here -- though I understand why Icon prefers this to actually dealing with the C-v-A points and Bible texts raised in some cases.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[OldRegular]

WARNING!!!! THIS IS A PROVOCATIVE OP MEANT TO SPARK DEBATE AND SHED LIGHT ON JUST WHAT IS THE TRUTH CONCERNING CALVINISM. PLEASE CONTINUE READING WITHOUT LETTING IT PROVOKE YOU TO ANGER. IT IS MEAN'T TO ESTABLISH WHAT TEACHINGS CALVINIST ARE TRULY SUPPORTING WITHIN THE CAMP.

Greetings All,

I have decided to prepare my first evangelical sermon for when and if the Lord and Creator Jesus Christ happens to make me one of His sheep, saving me.

I have spent quite a bit of time debating TULIP/Calvinism with those here who have been given Divine Enablement to believe and be saved by Calvinism, so I am getting ready just in case I find out one day that I am one of God's elect through belief in TULIP/Calvinism.



So far so good? Calvinist feel free to critique. These are the beliefs that have been expressed to me by Calvinist in my debate threads. I haven't seen any Calvinist rebuke these beliefs, so I have to assume they are well within the camp of Calvinist believers.

Belief in TULIP/Calvinism does not make you one of God's elect. In fact your statement

I am getting ready just in case I find out one day that I am one of God's elect through belief in TULIP/Calvinism.

is contrary to TULIP which you say you have debated. You make election conditional on your belief in TULIP/Calvinism but election is unconditional, the U in TULIP!

Someone else may have already pointed this out. If so my apologies to them!