Preparing a truthful Calvinist sermon

[Iconoclast]

Could you please point out which part or parts of the sermon you would disagree with and why?

I will do better than that Steaver....here are real Calvinist sermons...I have heard all of these men preach in person, I have spoken with these men, and will back up most of what they would preach as they present it.

So if and when you or the others find anything you can find fault with, post the message and the time on the message where you object....
I will give a sample of each Pastor....you can pick from thousands they have online and let us know where they do what you suggest:laugh::wavey::thumbsup:

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71814723310

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71814832132

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=71814832132

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=32081840552

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1116142035257

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=1228142133149

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=12151435121

 

[Iconoclast]

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=181516842

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=10714195523

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=105141156113

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?SID=46081752349

http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?sid=41408836543

 

[BobRyan]

When the Calvinist minister preaches a doctrinal sermon "to the choir" they freely describe Calvinism.

But when the Calvinist minister appeals to the lost to accept Christ - they use Arminian arguments.

The question is - why. And how do they sleep at night knowing that in real life - the only thing that actually works - is the Arminian appeal to the lost.

 

[Iconoclast]

When the Calvinist minister preaches a doctrinal sermon "to the choir" they freely describe Calvinism.

But when the Calvinist minister appeals to the lost to accept Christ - they use Arminian arguments.

The question is - why. And how do they sleep at night knowing that in real life - the only thing that actually works - is the Arminian appeal to the lost.

No Cal pastor has to do that as the sermon properly preached is the invitation.

which of the sermons listed does that?

if none of them do.....find one that does.

Arminian sermons appeal to the flesh to do something. I doubt you have heard real cal sermons, or you would not follow a false prophetess...

 

[BobRyan]

The Arminian evangelist can honestly preach about

• A Universal Appeal to Believe the Gospel (John 12:32).
• A Universal Declaration of God’s Love for All Humanity (John 3:16)
• A Universal Call To Repentance (Acts 2:38-39)
• A Universal Atonement Through The Favour of God (1 Timothy 2:1-6)
• A Universal Gospel Meant For All Nations (Mark 16:15-16)

The Calvinist evangelist can't.
All they can honestly proclaim is - arbitrary selection of the "FEW" in Matt 7, and a Sovereign God who selects what Christ calls "FEW." in Matt 7

So the Calvinist evangelist doing a crusade as Billy Graham was known to go - must resort to the Arminian appeal.

The only defense left for the Calvinist - is to post doctrinal sermons where they "preach to their own choir" which is the only safe context for Calvinism.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Arminian evangelist can honestly preach about

• A Universal Appeal to Believe the Gospel (John 12:32).
• A Universal Declaration of God’s Love for All Humanity (John 3:16)
• A Universal Call To Repentance (Acts 2:38-39)
• A Universal Atonement Through The Favour of God (1 Timothy 2:1-6)
• A Universal Gospel Meant For All Nations (Mark 16:15-16)

The Calvinist evangelist can't.
All they can honestly proclaim is - arbitrary selection of the "FEW" in Matt 7, and a Sovereign God who selects what Christ calls "FEW." in Matt 7

So the Calvinist evangelist doing a crusade as Billy Graham was known to go - must resort to the Arminian appeal.

The only defense left for the Calvinist - is to post doctrinal sermons where they "preach to their own choir" which is the only safe context for Calvinism.

This shows you have not heard Calvinistic preaching...I offered several if you do not want to listen that is on you,

there is no universal atonement .....there is a Covenant atonement for sinners scattered all over the world,from every tribe tongue and nation...cals preach that as that is what scripture offers.

I have no problem being faithful to scripture in presenting the gospel to sinners everyday...face to face without compromise.

Often all 5 pts come out if the conversation goes on for awhile. The people are almost relieved when they hear the truth expressed rather than the Pollyanna nonsense they are normally offered.

These truths are easily presented from the scripture alone, leaving the theological terms in the study and just opening up scripture such as jn 6;37-44,Jn 8, jn 10 :26-30 jn17, romans 1-3 ,8:29-39 Hebrews 10

 

[savedbymercy]

The Arminian evangelist can honestly preach about

• A Universal Appeal to Believe the Gospel (John 12:32).
• A Universal Declaration of God’s Love for All Humanity (John 3:16)
• A Universal Call To Repentance (Acts 2:38-39)
• A Universal Atonement Through The Favour of God (1 Timothy 2:1-6)
• A Universal Gospel Meant For All Nations (Mark 16:15-16)

The Calvinist evangelist can't.
All they can honestly proclaim is - arbitrary selection of the "FEW" in Matt 7, and a Sovereign God who selects what Christ calls "FEW." in Matt 7

So the Calvinist evangelist doing a crusade as Billy Graham was known to go - must resort to the Arminian appeal.

The only defense left for the Calvinist - is to post doctrinal sermons where they "preach to their own choir" which is the only safe context for Calvinism.

All those points are unscriptural ! For instance, the call is Limited in Acts 2:38-39 to only as many as the Lord shall call !

Acts 2:38-39

38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Peters sermon was addressed specifically to the House of Israel, a Elect People Acts 2:36,22

36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

22 Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:

Jesus gives Remission of sins unto Israel Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Gods promise of Salvation in the Lord was made to only one people, Israel Isa 45:15-17

15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

16 They shall be ashamed, and also confounded, all of them: they shall go to confusion together that are makers of idols.

17 But Israel shall be saved in the Lord with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.

 

[convicted1]

Could you please point out which part or parts of the sermon you would disagree with and why?

Okay, I'll try to be as concise as possible....

Good evening everyone! So glad you all are here tonight. I will begin by telling you this, you are not here tonight by chance or any choosing of your own to come. No, God has caused you to be here tonight to hear His message which I will deliver to you tonight straight from the very word of God!

I know you're being facetious, but this is the truth, whether you agree with it or not. God uses the gospel to bring His sheep into the sheepfold. Jesus laid that out plainly in John 10.....


"Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is not entering through the door to the fold of the sheep, but is going up from another side, that one is a thief and a robber; and he who is entering through the door is shepherd of the sheep; to this one the doorkeeper doth open, and the sheep hear his voice, and his own sheep he doth call by name, and doth lead them forth; and when his own sheep he may put forth, before them he goeth on, and the sheep follow him, because they have known his voice; and a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, because they have not known the voice of strangers."(vss 1-5 YLT)


Now, it is through the gospel that the sheep are gathered in....Ephesians 1:13, 1 Cor. 1:21, and Romans 1:16.....

Let's begin in Matthew chapter 7 verses 13&14. "Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."

How do they enter in through the strait and narrow gate? Via Christ and preaching of the gospel. The non-elect, the goats, they gladly go to hell. You witness to people, and if God isn't working within them, they want nothing to do with you. They are happy, content in their sinful lifestyle(s). Unless God changes their will, their 'want to', they will never desire to find that strait and narrow gate.

There are a few of you here tonight whom God is going to cause to believe the Gospel, which is also called Calvinism or TULIP. However, I must be totally honest, most here will not be able to believe because God will not cause you to believe but will let you remain in your condemned condition.

You're a quick learner...:thumbsup: kudos!!!

You see, the way God is portrayed in the bible is One who chooses according to His good will and pleasure, loves some and hates the rest, has mercy on some and hardens the others, calls some and leaves the rest in their fallen state.

You're plagarizing here.....but you're learning...:thumbsup:

A few of you here tonight are loved by God, you will know who you are because you will believe in TULIP/Calvinism/Gospel. But those of you here tonight who cannot believe this are hated by God, God is passing you bye, you were created just for the purpose of showing God's wrath, that He may destroy you in the lake of fire to exist in torture for ever and ever, never to escape.

God made Adam and then Eve. We are procreated. Major difference.

Now even some of you out here who think you are "believers" may protest. You may say, "well I'm a believer on Jesus Christ and a child of God, but I do not believe in TULIP/Calvinism. With TULIP being so blatant and clearly being expressed in the scriptures as you claim, could we conclude the Holy Spirit is failing to teach this truth to the children of God then?"

Oy vey....

No.....Jesus declared that the sheep will hear His voice, others who do not, are not His sheep...that is why they do not hear;
26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

:thumbsup: you're slooooooooowly getting there....

In closing, let me congratulate those here who God has caused to believe the Gospel/TULIP. God loves you very much and has forgiven all your sin through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. And for those here tonight who do not believe, you deserve the eternal hell God is going to send you to because you refuse to believe and God hates you. I offer no condolences, for what God hates I must hate, and whom God hates I must hate also, for I am called to be holy as my Father in heaven is holy.

All of us were deserving of hell. God didn't have to send Jesus to die for us(before He created the world, that is), but He chose to. The bible explicitly shows a covenental love betwixt the bride(the church) and the Bridegroom(Jesus). If you believe in universal atonement, then you believe in universal salvation. Congrats, you're a universalist.

 

[steaver]

Okay, I'll try to be as concise as possible....

I know you're being facetious, but this is the truth, whether you agree with it or not. God uses the gospel to bring His sheep into the sheepfold. Jesus laid that out plainly in John 10.....

"Verily, verily, I say to you, He who is not entering through the door to the fold of the sheep, but is going up from another side, that one is a thief and a robber; and he who is entering through the door is shepherd of the sheep; to this one the doorkeeper doth open, and the sheep hear his voice, and his own sheep he doth call by name, and doth lead them forth; and when his own sheep he may put forth, before them he goeth on, and the sheep follow him, because they have known his voice; and a stranger they will not follow, but will flee from him, because they have not known the voice of strangers."(vss 1-5 YLT)


Now, it is through the gospel that the sheep are gathered in....Ephesians 1:13, 1 Cor. 1:21, and Romans 1:16.....

How do they enter in through the strait and narrow gate? Via Christ and preaching of the gospel. The non-elect, the goats, they gladly go to hell. You witness to people, and if God isn't working within them, they want nothing to do with you. They are happy, content in their sinful lifestyle(s). Unless God changes their will, their 'want to', they will never desire to find that strait and narrow gate.

You're a quick learner...:thumbsup: kudos!!!

You're plagarizing here.....but you're learning...:thumbsup:

God made Adam and then Eve. We are procreated. Major difference.

Oy vey....



:thumbsup: you're slooooooooowly getting there....

All of us were deserving of hell. God didn't have to send Jesus to die for us(before He created the world, that is), but He chose to. The bible explicitly shows a covenental love betwixt the bride(the church) and the Bridegroom(Jesus). If you believe in universal atonement, then you believe in universal salvation. Congrats, you're a universalist.

You are very confusing brother. First you complain I do not understand Calvinism according to my sermon, and now you agree with it!! Make up your mind

 

[steaver]

I will do better than that Steaver....here are real Calvinist sermons...

That's not one better and has nothing to do with the OP. Look at my OP sermon and point out which parts are not being honest and why.

So far brother Willis agrees it is honest. No other Calvinist has yet opined, makes me believe it is right on the mark so far.......

 

[BobRyan]

Of course the "truthful Arminian Sermon" goes something like this ...

18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, 19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

And the response from some Calvinists?? "extreme inference" eisegetically spinning the text so that it cannot even be true at all!

The world here in 2 Cor 5:19 is a world that is saved from the penalty of its sins ! If you notice, Paul says that God did not impute or charge it with its sins, so that means its already saved from the penalty of its sins, so it cannot be speaking of the whole world without exception, because many in the world are going to die in their sins in unbelief Jn 8:24 ! Thats impossible for to do for anyone who is reconciled to God already by the death of God's Son ! The World in 2 Cor 5:19 is limited to the Saved not the Lost.

The Lost world has the Gospel hid from them 2 Cor 4:3-4 and they cannot believe !

That is eisegesis - you "infer" your meaning into the text such that you must avoid all other texts to the contrary. i.e. "proof texting" as many Calvinist do.

As you are doing here.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[PreachTony]

God made Adam and then Eve. We are procreated. Major difference.

I know it's a bit nitpicky, but what do you make of these scriptures:

1 Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The Lord hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.
2 And he hath made my mouth like a sharp sword; in the shadow of his hand hath he hid me, and made me a polished shaft; in his quiver hath he hid me;
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.

and

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Ostensibly those scriptures argue that God knew us before birth, and even had some input, however much is a matter of debate, in forming us in the womb.

If you believe in universal atonement, then you believe in universal salvation. Congrats, you're a universalist.

What if you believe in an atonement that is offered universally, but is either accepted or rejected by those to whom it is offered? Does that still make someone a universalist? Fact is, you simply cannot reconcile the Universalist theology with the scriptures.

 

[BobRyan]

The honest and consistent sermon should include

Quote:
Nothing I say and nothing you choose this evening will make any difference at all in the outcome, in your salvation or your eternal doom forsaken of God. You and I have no control at all over that.

Let's all just be seated for the rest of the meeting - and in silence watch to see what God is sovereignly going to do.

20 minute pause ...

Dismissed.

Every Calvinist on the planet could get up that sort of simple format and sermon. And if that actually worked in real life ... We should see Calvinist evangelism exploding in great numbers all over the world!!

As we saw #22 this is the reason that does not work. it is blind to the free will principle that is at the core of God's lament when the lost "choose" to reject the Gospel.

The following statement is a great highlight on Spurgeon's view of a key doctrine in Calvinism - as we find it in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

Quote:
Originally Posted by Reformed

Quoting Spurgeon in the "Baptist Confession of Faith"

4. Others are not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may experience some common operations of the Spirit, yet because they are not effectually drawn by the Father, they will not and cannot truly come to Christ and therefore cannot be saved. Much less can men who do not embrace the Christian religion be saved, however diligent they may be to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the requirements of the religion they profess.

Clearly the statement above identified without question what Calvinism considers to be the determining element in all cases where one person is lost and another saved.


But in so doing - Spurgeon is stuck at the point of making God the author of His own "lament".


Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRyan


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Response: [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] Well the Calvinist would have an answer for God's question on that one. An answer contrived via “extreme inference” in places like Deut 5:29. Calvinism would inform the world – and God Himself of just what God did to cause the lamentable result that God is complaining about in t[FONT=&quot]he verse above[/FONT].

[FONT=&quot]I[FONT=&quot]n Calvinism i[/FONT][/FONT]f the result is wrong if it is to be lamented if the question [FONT=&quot]is to be asked "What more could have been done" w[FONT=&quot]ell [/FONT][/FONT]then Calvinism argues He [FONT=&quot]knows exactly what He failed to do [/FONT] - [FONT=&quot]in effect [/FONT] sabotaging His own plans - the cause of His own "lament" - or at the very least - being forgetful to "do the necessary" as the saying goes in India.

[FONT=&quot]================================

[FONT=&quot]God's "lament" does not ask "what more could the LOST have done that they have not done" because He knows[FONT=&quot] exactly wh[FONT=&quot]at THEY could h[FONT=&quot]av[FONT=&quot]e [FONT=&quot]done.

[FONT=&quot]Rather [FONT=&quot]G[FONT=&quot]od asks[FONT=&quot] 'What MOR[FONT=&quot]E could I HAVE done that I did not do?" -- the very ques[FONT=&quot]tion [FONT=&quot]all Calvinists claim to have the answer for.[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]

=======================

Calvinism claims that this lament is impossible because only God controls that outcome it is not affected by the choice of man.

Pay close attention as one of our Calvinist friends instructs God on what "HE can do" to resolve "His Lament".

The non-elect, the goats, they gladly go to hell. You witness to people, and if God isn't working within them, they want nothing to do with you. They are happy, content in their sinful lifestyle(s). Unless God changes their will, their 'want to', they will never desire to find that strait and narrow gate.

And they will happily instruct him on that point ... time after time. Because in the Calvinist fiction God's lament makes no sense at all. it describes a scenario that "cannot exist" in calvinism.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

All of us were deserving of hell. God didn't have to send Jesus to die for us(before He created the world, that is), but He chose to. The bible explicitly shows a covenental love betwixt the bride(the church) and the Bridegroom(Jesus). If you believe in universal atonement, then you believe in universal salvation. Congrats, you're a universalist.

Your logic is correct - the problem is -- you don't understand the term "atonement" and God has defined it instead of leaving that detail up to Calvinists.

There is a pretty good explanation of it by God Himself in Lev 16 for those who care that their doctrine could be flawed (unless they are the Pope of course).

in Christ,

Bob

 

[savedbymercy]

20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were making an appeal through us; we beg you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.

And the response from some Calvinists?? "extreme inference" eisegetically spinning the text so that it cannot even be true at all!



That is eisegesis - you "infer" your meaning into the text such that you must avoid all other texts to the contrary. i.e. "proof texting" as many Calvinist do.

As you are doing here.

in Christ,

Bob

You just dont believe the Truth. The World in 2 Cor 5:19 does not have any sins charged to it. That in and of itself means saved from the penalty and consequences of sin ! So Vs 20 is an appeal to the already saved, not to the Lost !

 

[breakingcontact]

It seems many who find Calvinism apply it incorrectly. I think that is part of what puts off so many.

 

[steaver]

God made Adam and then Eve. We are procreated. Major difference.

Gen4:1 - "And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD."

 

[Iconoclast]

It seems many who find Calvinism apply it incorrectly. I think that is part of what puts off so many.

Welcome to the bb....

Sometimes that can happen...UT here what is happening is a few who clearly do not understand the verses at all are just foaming out all manner of error.

Notice how the poster is clueless on lk19:10.......do you see not only his wrong Iidea.....but because he has an agenda to attack.....he then inflicts other wrong ideas into the discuss I on to annoy saved by mercy

 

[Jerome]

Huh?:null:

 

[BobRyan]

You just dont believe the Truth. The World in 2 Cor 5:19 does not have any sins charged to it.

The world of 2Cor 5 is not destroyed for all of its sin. yet.

Probation for the world is still ongoing.

That in and of itself means saved from the penalty and consequences of sin ! So Vs 20 is an appeal to the already saved, not to the Lost !

The unreconciled already saved?

A statement never found in all of scripture.

Really? that is where extreme inference leads you?

Not one text says that "you are unreconciled though already saved"

Rather 2Cor 5 argues for you to choose to be reconciled to God because in that reconciliation you get the benefit of the Atonement.

Without it - you have nothing.

Without choosing to be reconciled you have --


[FONT=&quot]“He CAME to HIS OWN and [/FONT][FONT=&quot]His OWN received Him not[/FONT][FONT=&quot]” John 1[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Matt 23[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]37“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]38“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]Luke 7[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]28 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they acknowledged God’s justice, having been baptized with the baptism of John. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]29 [/FONT][FONT=&quot]But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God’s purpose for themselves, not having been baptized by John.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT][FONT=&quot]Is 5:4[/FONT][FONT=&quot]
What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?[/FONT]


in Christ,

Bob