Presbyterians Ordain Homosexual Minister!

[Magnetic Poles]

That is too bad on both counts.

So you think I should become a UU? :laugh:

 

[freeatlast]

So you think I should become a UU? :laugh:

No I think it should break your heart.

 

[Magnetic Poles]

No I think it should break your heart.

OK...just wanted clarification. Thanks. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[annsni]

The UU church near me has a lesbian pastor. It matters not to me. I am not a UU.

I don't think the UU counts as a church (Biblically) nor does the leader count as a pastor - especially a woman!!!

 

[Amy.G]

I don't think the UU counts as a church (Biblically) nor does the leader count as a pastor - especially a woman!!!

Maybe "she's" not really a woman.

It's hard to tell these days.

 

[John Toppass]

In my opinion, a denomination is a group that denominates. Baptist groups, like the SBC, formally denominates therefore it is a denomination.

Some believe that because the local church is autonomous means they are not denominating. However, when autonomous churches unite and formally denominate over local church autonomy, they then become a denomination.

I appreciate that you qualified this by stating it was your opinion. It does prove you know very, very little about the SBC.

 

[matt wade]

I appreciate that you qualified this by stating it was your opinion. It does prove you know very, very little about the SBC.

The SBC certainly is a denomination. If you don't follow their rules, you get kicked out of the club. You can twist words and say that local congregations are autonomous, but that's only true if they choose to 1) stay within the rules or 2) leave the denomination.

 

[annsni]

Maybe "she's" not really a woman.

It's hard to tell these days.

I really hate to say it but you're right. I've never seen in person a feminine pastor.

 

[righteousdude2]

I'm Also Glad He Clarified that...

OK...just wanted clarification. Thanks. :smilewinkgrin:

...As it sounded like he thought you should become a UU...raying:

 

[Salty]

The SBC certainly is a denomination. If you don't follow their rules, you get kicked out of the club. You can twist words and say that local congregations are autonomous, but that's only true if they choose to 1) stay within the rules or 2) leave the denomination.

Yes, the SBC is a denomination, just like IFB's are a denomination - but neither is a Denomination! (notice the capitalization of the "d" and "D" )

Here is the difference. There was a Methodist church down in WV (near Bluefied). They had some differences with the Methodist doctrine and let the Bishop know about. Bishop said fine - but leave the keys to the church building with me. ( By the way - they went across the street and became a Baptist church.) (true story - and BTW, I have preached in that church twice.)

Now if they had originally been a SBC - and they told the DOM we no longer believe you have to be immersed and by the way we now have a female pastor - the DOM would say - Fine - but please take down your SBC sign as you no longer desire to fellowship with us. (and of course they would get to keep their building as a SBC church is autonomous)

 

[John Toppass]

The SBC certainly is a denomination. If you don't follow their rules, you get kicked out of the club. You can twist words and say that local congregations are autonomous, but that's only true if they choose to 1) stay within the rules or 2) leave the denomination.

Nope. it is not. The SBC is doctrinal agreement between churches. Either can leave when they feel it is in their best interests. The SBC makes no claims on how my church spends the offerings, it does not even tell us who can be our Pastor or staff. The individual church chose to join and can choose to leave. In fact, most separations are church chosen and not SBC chosen, which is the way autonomy works.

 

[matt wade]

The SBC makes no claims on how my church spends the offerings, it does not even tell us who can be our Pastor or staff.

What would happen if your church chose a woman or homosexual as a pastor?

What would happen if your church chose to spend the offerings to open a business such as a liquor store?

 

[Ruiz]

What would happen if your church chose a woman or homosexual as a pastor?

What would happen if your church chose to spend the offerings to open a business such as a liquor store?

I do not think alcohol is a sin, but I would think spending such resources for profit gain is against other principles.

I would guess that a woman pastor or a homosexual pastor is probably not a true church, if it it is a true church it barely resembles a true church. They are in error and probably are at risk of no longer being a church.

 

[Salty]

Nope. it is not. The SBC is doctrinal agreement between churches. Either can leave when they feel it is in their best interests. The SBC makes no claims on how my church spends the offerings, it does not even tell us who can be our Pastor or staff. The individual church chose to join and can choose to leave. In fact, most separations are church chosen and not SBC chosen, which is the way autonomy works.

In addition - most of the time - the local church requests assistance from the association or State Convention. We have had staff come into our small church - and guess what - we are not required to pay them or even take a love offering as their expenses are covered by the co-op program - which we voluntarily give to.
All the Assoc or Convention do is make recommendations - there were several recommendations given to our church - some we chose to follow thur, others - we did not. It was our choice.

Salty

ps - denomination also means :
denomination's Defination

1. (n.) That by which anything is denominated or styled; an epithet; a name, designation, or title; especially, a general name indicating a class of like individuals; a category;

Note: bold print my emphasis - notice it does not say anything about requiring a "higher headquarters"

and thats exactly what Baptists (including independent Baptists) are a general name indicating a class of like (not identical) individuals.

So whether you like it or not, you IFB are a denomination - but my question is why are you making such a big fuss about it - We do agree on one thing - no other organization can tell us what we must do or cant do in our local autonomous Baptist church.

 

[matt wade]

I do not think alcohol is a sin, but I would think spending such resources for profit gain is against other principles.

I would guess that a woman pastor or a homosexual pastor is probably not a true church, if it it is a true church it barely resembles a true church. They are in error and probably are at risk of no longer being a church.

Whether or not the actions are sinful are irrelevant. The question is what actions would the SBC take against a church that took those actions?

 

[matt wade]

So whether you like it or not, you IFB are a denomination - but my question is why are you making such a big fuss about it - We do agree on one thing - no other organization can tell us what we must do or cant do in our local autonomous Baptist church.

See that is what is in dispute. I say that the SBC can tell the local church what to do. If the SBC rules are not followed then the local church will be removed from the SBC. That's the nature of a denomination. There are rules flowing from a central office. Yes, the local church can chose to disobey those rules, but at the risk of being removed from the denomination.

I reject the definition you found in a dictionary. While in the general sense of the word it may be true, it does not apply to what is commonly referred to as a denomination. We can find definitions for all types of words that don't apply to real life.

 

[Ruiz]

I appreciate that you qualified this by stating it was your opinion. It does prove you know very, very little about the SBC.

John,

BTW, I do not claim to be an expert on SBC, but they refer to themselves as a denomination as seen at this link . Please see the specific quote below:

The term "Southern Baptist Convention" refers to both the denomination and its annual meeting. Working through 1,200 local associations and 41 state conventions and fellowships, Southern Baptists share a common bond of basic Biblical beliefs and a commitment to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ to the entire world.

So, I will admit to not being an expert on the SBC, but if you think they are not a denomination, you need to argue with the Southern Baptist Convention's official website. Thus, both of us probably needs more education on the SBC.

I would like to know your understanding on the word "denomination" because, from my understanding I have a clear definition of denomination that seems to fit with the historic understanding of denomination. To denominate is a denomination. I have heard what you think it is not, but I would like a definition on what it is. Yet, remember, the SBC is a denomination according to their own website.

 

[Ruiz]

Whether or not the actions are sinful are irrelevant. The question is what actions would the SBC take against a church that took those actions?

On alcohol, they shouldn't or they would have kicked out some of their own ancestors.

The latter, they should kick them out.

 

[Salty]

I reject the definition you found in a dictionary. While in the general sense of the word it may be true, it does not apply to what is commonly referred to as a denomination. We can find definitions for all types of words that don't apply to real life.

thats the point - the word denomination has more than one meaning.
The other definition does indicate a hierarchy

Lets take some Bible words -
Baptizo (907) means to baptize or even wash
gate Acts 3:2 (2374) = opening
Acts 12:13 (4440) = a gateway /doorway of a building

anybody else have a good example

Matt - I have a challenge for you - can you find a dictionary that states that the only definition of a denomination must have a "higher headquarter" (hierarchy form of govt)

Salty

PS - I just love :smilewinkgrin: your statement of "I reject"
How many times has a non Christian said they reject what the Bible says about (true) salvation? Just because they do not believe it, does not make it any less true.

 

[matt wade]

Matt - I have a challenge for you - can you find a dictionary that states that the only definition of a denomination must have a "higher headquarter" (hierarchy form of govt)

Here's a good one for you:

http://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/dictionary/index.cfm?id=33029

:laugh: