Prescience / Foreknowledge / Foresight

[Tom Butler]

Tom,

Tom, it was those same "blind" Jews who believed FIRST, remember? the 12 disciples? 3000 at Pentecost? Collectively Israel was blind. Selectively there were 7000 converts that Isaiah didn't even know about who "saw!!"

God didn't condemn even all Jews to blindness nor does He condemn certain persons to blindness. These statements have to do with generalities -- "children of Israel" in general. Do you see that?

I do see that. But a couple of points here: Israel's collective blindness involve the blinding of individual members. And God did in fact blind all but 7,000.

 

[skypair]

I do see that. But a couple of points here: Israel's collective blindness involve the blinding of individual members. And God did in fact blind all but 7,000.

Hi Tom,

I think we can agree that the blindness was "top down," right? Much as it appears to be within the church today (I'm thinking RCC in particular but Episcopals and others come to mind lately).

Salvation is found on the individual level of each "lost sheep" which is why we can say that God never predestines anyone to condemnation. Where we see what appears to be such, scripture seems to speak of Israel who missed Messiah -- were "blind" to -- at his first coming whereas the Gentiles pretty much accept it whether they trust in Him or not.

skypair

 

[skypair]

SP, Calvinists do not believe that God gives Spirit indwelling to the elect even before they are born . The elect enter this world like everyone else -- under the wrath of God . When they are regenerated they receive the Holy Spirit . So your understanding is wrong . Where did you hear such a thing ?

rippon,

Good! Cause over on zolaboard there are many who say that the "elect" couldn't "hear" if they weren't already indwelt. When I try to nail down when they could have received the Spirit, they clam up. Some believe at infant baptism. Some can't figure it out but KNOW that indwelling comes before repentance, before belief -- they believe the elect are regenerated before salvation as well.

So -- when are the elect "regenerated," rippon?

skypair

 

[skypair]

Hyperness in this case has nothing to do with how many ponits you believe. It has what you do with the points. Hyper Cal says there is no need for mission. Classic Calvinism uses the 5 points to show a need for missions.

OK, being that is the way you define it, I've heard the rationale. Missions = obedience, right? God "playing with His toy" in Africa rather than in America. But acknowledging that all the "elect" will be saved regardless.

If I were Calvinist, I'd have to be with the hypers on that. Isn't saying that missionaries bring people to Christ a denial of God's sovereignty? of His omnipotence? I don't see that the 5 points in anyway interjects the need of man into the plan of bringing in a pre-chosen "elect." I believe that missionsaries DO have the task of growing believers into sanctification -- but that is not evangelism. And in fact, my late pastor (Dr. Rogers) maintained that Calvinist missionaries are proselytes, not evangelists. That is, they win folks from other religions to theirs rather than to Christ. Harsh, isn't it? True? I've seen that side of it -- drawing Catholics into the Presbryterian Church in Buenos Aires, for instance.

Most freewillers say election is based on foreknowledge as in...God forsaw who would believe and elected only those. This makes God a robot, only to carry out what he saw. In this view God cannot change anything and is a helpless actor of mans will.

Well, first off, you're just trying make the reverse accusation to the one that has merit. As we all know, God is not bound to "carry out what He saw." Rather, scripture says that He responds to everything He foresaw in ways that He sovereignly chooses. Take man's rebellion before the flood. Man acts up, God reacts. God acts, man reacts. It's like a marriage, not like either one is "controlled" by the other. The only thing "immutable" in the interplay is God's own nature and law regarding what He can do and what He has promised.

I think you gotta ask yourself 2 questions regarding free will's assertions: 1) Did God foresee all things --- Alpha to Omega -- from before creation? is He omniscient or not? 2) Did God allow man, beginning with Adam, to have his own sovereignty? make his own choices? Didn't David say and Jesus repeat "ye are gods?" Does that not mean that man has free authority over what God has given to him - life, wealth, honor?

I'll draw this out to the full end if you still do not understand.

This could be a good discussion. I'll look forward to it!

skypair

 

[Rippon]

Skypair , the elect are regenerated in time , justified in time -- chosen in eternity . But an elect infant entering this world is still under the wrath of God though God will draw him to Himself at the appointed time . And of course the drawing is complete and effectual . There is no such thing as a partial drawing -- a mere tugging . The drawing is always fully achieved by the Lord .

 

[skypair]

Skypair , the elect are regenerated in time...

Thank you -- and that would be when they believe and repent when "called," right?

... justified in time...

Right on! when one believes and repents, right?

...chosen in eternity...

Past or future?

But an elect infant entering this world is still under the wrath of God though God will draw him to Himself at the appointed time.

It goes without saying that if God saw that he/she ("elect infant") would believe that that person will be "called," right? And that a non-elect one would die before believing as well.

And of course the drawing is complete and effectual.

No argument there. What we are trying to "home in on" is how one is -- God's sovereign choice or our own sovereign choice. Did God decide who would be saved (and if so, by what criteria) or does man get to decide with God foreknowing our decision??

I was reading Ray Stedman last night and I love his description that I hope you will enjoy too.

"It is also in the Scriptures that we learn that "God has chosen" us (1Thes 1:4). How do you know that out of the millions who have ever lived on earth God chose you? The answer is that you began to be drawn to God, to sense a desire for Him. The calling of God by means of the Spirit awakes a hunger within. If you are longing to be different, if you want to be more than you are now, if you have tried to change but cannot... you are being drawn by the Spirit! Jesus said, 'No one can come to me except the Father who sent me draws him.' (John 6:44).

...

"Paul goes on to detail the steps necessary to God's call. First, the 'gospel ... came not simply with words.' The Scriptures are preached, the truth declared. ...

"The second factor iin God's call is His power. 'Our gospel came to you not merely with words but also with power' (v. 5). ... The gospel has the ability to compel ... They became different people.

"Also, says Paul, the gospel comes 'with the Holy Spirit' (v. 5). Behind the power is the reality of God himself. ... He begins to minister to our minds and our hearts from within...

"Finally, the gospel came 'with deep conviction' (v. 5), moving the wills of the Thessalonians. They acted. They did something about it: they yielded their lives to God. ... That is the final, necessary step. Ultimately, the will must be moved. Jesus says, 'Behold I stand at the door and knock..." ...

This, then, is 'the work of faith.' Until you have actually received Christ, you have not exercised faith. You can believe the story to be true, but until it moves you to accept the Lord, to invite him into your heart, you have not exercised faith." (If you have not exercised faith, you have "believed in vain," rippon)

Now is Stedman a Calvinist or a free willer?? Does justification and regeneration come on account of belief or on account of "election" in eternity past?? I find this a pretty neutral statement so far as the Calvin-free will debate. Do you?

skypair

 

[GordonSlocum]

Found this just recently, Let me know what you think

Γραπτός από έναν Αγιο του πιό ιερών Θεού και του Savior Ιησούς Χριστός.

1:1 στο όνομα του Θεού που φοβάται τους Αγίους διασκόρπισαν εν τούτοις έξω τον κόσμο. Η ειρήνη, το έλεος και οι ευχαριστίες είναι unto ο πατέρας, και Χριστός Ιησούς. Το 1:2 αγαπημένο σε Χριστό δεν τινάζεται σύντομα από τις δοκιμές από τους ψεύτικους αδελφούς. Σταθείτε σταθερός και υπομείνετε τη φιλοσοφία τουλιπών αυτών των ψεύτικων δασκάλων. Το 1:3 δεν άφησε την υγιή διδασκαλία που είναι σε σας αλλοιώνεται με το ατελείωτο στρίψιμο ιερών γραφών τους. Γιατί είναι unto η καταστροφή τους κατοικούν συνεχώς σε αυτή που διαμορφώνουν τη σάρκα. Το 1:4 αγαπημένο του Θεού κατοικεί στο υγιές δόγμα ως και η κυρίαρχη πρόγνωση του Θεού που σας έσωσε πριν από το ίδρυμα του κόσμου σε Χριστό και δήλωσε εσείς στην αιωνιότητα εκλέγει, διορίζοντας σας στην αιώνια ζωή μαζί με όλους που θεωρούν και θα θεωρήσουν. Το 1:5 στο Θεό είναι η δόξα και τιμά και εγκωμιάζει για πάντα και πάντα. Δείτε πώς έχω γράψει αυτήν την σύντομη επιστολή για να ενθαρρύνω και να αναγκάσω την αλήθεια για να ανακατωθώ επάνω σε σας στην υπεράσπιση της αλήθειας που είναι σε Χριστό, αιώνιος Θεός και Savior όλοι που πιστεύουν σε τον.

 

[skypair]

Gordon.

English please??

skypair

 

[Jarthur001]

Found this just recently, Let me know what you think

.

Written from one Saint of holiest God and Savior Jesus Christ

1:1 in the name of God that fears the Saints they scattered however
outside the world. The peace, the mercy and the thanks are unto the
father, and Christ Jesus.

1:2 love in Christ is not shaken shortly by the trials by the false
brothers. Stand constant and endure these philosophy of tulips of
false schoolteachers.


1:3 did not leave the healthy teaching that is in you is degraded with
(??? ???? ???) their holy writings. Because it is unto their
destruction they live continuously in the one that shapes the flesh.


1:4 love of God lives in the healthy doctrine up to the sovereign
forecast of God that to you saved before the institution of world in
Christ and declared you in the eternity it elects, naming you in the
eternal life with all that they consider and will consider.


1:5 in the God it is the glory and honours always and (??? ???) for
and always. See how I have written this short letter in order to I
encourage and I force the truth in order to (??? ???) on you in the
defence of truth that is in Christ, eternal God and Savior all that
they believe in.

*********

I fail to see the point. Must be a Calvinist slam although, most of it does not jive. Like this would be the 1st.


He messed up a few times..but no big deal.

 

[skypair]

Followup to my previous Ray Stedman post...

In Chapt 8, he says no one knows whether regeneratoin comes first or whether belief comes first. It is both clear that the Spirit has a part to do and so does man, he says.

That's as close as I can come to being Calvinist. I Believe I and scriptures know the answers that Calvinists lack but they certainly aren't "seeking" them so, if God is true to His word, they won't find them either.

skypair

 

[GordonSlocum]

Written from one Saint of holiest God and Savior Jesus Christ

1:1 in the name of God that fears the Saints they scattered however
outside the world. The peace, the mercy and the thanks are unto the
father, and Christ Jesus.

1:2 love in Christ is not shaken shortly by the trials by the false
brothers. Stand constant and endure these philosophy of tulips of
false schoolteachers.


1:3 did not leave the healthy teaching that is in you is degraded with
(??? ???? ???) their holy writings. Because it is unto their
destruction they live continuously in the one that shapes the flesh.


1:4 love of God lives in the healthy doctrine up to the sovereign
forecast of God that to you saved before the institution of world in
Christ and declared you in the eternity it elects, naming you in the
eternal life with all that they consider and will consider.


1:5 in the God it is the glory and honours always and (??? ???) for
and always. See how I have written this short letter in order to I
encourage and I force the truth in order to (??? ???) on you in the
defence of truth that is in Christ, eternal God and Savior all that
they believe in.

*********

I fail to see the point. Must be a Calvinist slam although, most of it does not jive. Like this would be the 1st.


He messed up a few times..but no big deal.

You cheated. I know what you did. Just don't tell anyone. Let them figure it our on their own.

Have to do a slam dunk the Tulip here and there. Keeps the debate spirit hot and stirred. Don't what things to get boring. Would be interesting to carry on a debate on the Tulip in Greek. That should drive some bonkers.

 

[GordonSlocum]

Jarthur, my Greek is troubling to say the least. It is that you have become a fast learner of the fine are of language. You and I both know the kind of "drugs we both take to achieve such rapid ability". Now I will have to confess that the next enlightenment I have for you is better related in Spanish rather than Greek.

Let me know what you think. I speak from personal experience if you are enlightened to understand and I do believe you are. I do not know why - however - such rapid learning and smarts does not translated in to a free will position in Christ. Those of us cured from Tulips are constantly in prayer for you poor souls who are not yet enlightened. But, after you consider the Spanish Revelation I have sent your way, you may be inclined to feast on a more favorable diet and thus be converted away from Tulips to Poke Greens.

Wisdom from the desk of Cured from Tulips. The truth of POKE Salad advice shoud be an eye opener. You should know that POKE does not translate in to Spanish so I have spelled it P.O.K.E. for your benifit.


El problema con Tulipanes es que ellos son sazonados con gérmenes de Calvin y es putrefacto. Estoy seguro que este va a - ponerse ante seguidores de Calvin. Me gusta P.O.K.E. Verdes. Ellos tienen más sabor. La ensalada de P.O.K.E. crece bien alrededor de caídas de Conejo. Sé este para un hecho. Levantamos a conejos y el P.O.K.E. Los Verdes eran abundantes. Usted tendrá que afiliarse a mí algún día sobre un lío de P.O.K.E. y Té Arminian. Este debería calmar su alma fatalista suficientemente para impedirle tener un ataque de TULIPÁN y morir joven.