Preterism and "This Generation"

[Warren]

Ed,

"This generation" meant the same thing it did in other references, namely, the lifetime and people that Jesus spoke to. We must remain consistent. Ed throws consistency out the window and makes up his own rules along the way.

You can't have it both ways, Ed. Imminency is only relevant to the original audience. Those were flippant remarks the inspired Apostles made in the time statements. Rather, they were TRUE because the end REALLY WAS near at that time. Either it was near or far, but not both.

Get real, Ed.

Warren

 

[Ed Edwards]

Warren: " ... words of scripture a LIE ... "
" ... first century Christian dupes ...

Your reputation wanes

Grasshopper: "Literal Ed?"

Ok, perchance occassionaly "mountains" stands
for something other than "mountains". What
does "islands" stand for?

Grasshopper: "Now Mr. Ed says ... "

When you are talking to the talking
hourse, Mr. Ed be real
sure you are taking to the right end

 

[Ed Edwards]

Honesly guys, i spent 10 years of my life
in close communication with various and sundry
Mystic Christians. Gnostic preterism is
a branch of mysticism. The opposite of
mysticism is to take literally all prophecy
not obviously metaphoric (or some other
retorical device). "Mountain" is literal
for mouontain; not metaphoric for something
else.

When did the mountains and islands disappear
in history? They did not.
The literal mountains and literal islands
will physically disappear, later.

 

[Grasshopper]

The opposite of
mysticism is to take literally all prophecy
not obviously metaphoric (or some other
retorical device).

Thats just it Ed, it is clearly metaphoric.
Over and over and over I have shown you that OT judgement language is metaphoric in nature. You refuse to see for whatever reasons you have.

"Mountain" is literal
for mouontain; not metaphoric for something
else.

Can you read Ed?

Hab 3:6 He stood, and shook the earth;
he looked, and made the nations tremble.
The ancient mountains crumbled and the age-old hills collapsed

Nahum 1
1 An oracle concerning Nineveh . The book of the vision of Nahum the Elkoshite.
5 The mountains quake before him
and the hills melt away .

Micah 1:
Judgment Against Samaria and Jerusalem
3 Look! The LORD is coming from his dwelling place;
he comes down and treads the high places of the earth.
4 The mountains melt beneath him
and the valleys split apart ,

Is this literal Ed? Please answer.

When did the mountains and islands disappear
in history? They did not.
The literal mountains and literal islands
will physically disappear, later.

When did mountains literally crumble in history Ed? When did the heavens literally dissolve in history Ed? When did mountains literally melt in history Ed?

If you say they didn't, then you are an intellectual hypocrite. If you say they did then you are ????

Now you see why I didn't want to waste my time quoting you the scriptures you asked for. I give them to you and then you deny what they say. You have made up your mind that Pre-Mill Disp is true and your not going to let the Word of God get in your way.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Please cite the version when citing
scripture. I have 24 different paper
Bibles and don't really have time to
try and figure out which one is being used.
By contrast, the poster should have the
version in hand when they quote the
scripture.

Grasshopper: "Now you see why I didn't want to waste my time quoting you the scriptures you asked for."

Because your are a gnostic preterist mystic?

I knew a mystic Christian once
who hadn't sinned in
25 years. Probably by now he hasn't sinned
for 32 years. teehee

 

[Gina B]

Guys and gals, please refrain from making personal comments directed at each other and remember to stay on topic.
Gina

 

[Eric B]

I'm not sure about the Matt.27 saints who came out of the graves.

But if you take this together with the seed analogy, then both become easy to understand

However, Paul's seed analogy backs up what I'm saying. Unless a seed dies and goes into the ground the life within doesn't come forth. Paul said our outward man was is perishing, but the inward man is renewed. The seed analogy shows that the resurrection body is not a reconstition of our bodily atoms from all points of the globe where they are scattered and then a zapping into incorruptible atoms. Rather, it is a brand new body - a "heavenly" one.

That seed analogy is precisely one of the things that points to the new body coming from the material of the old. v.37, 38 "And that which you sow, you sow not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may of chance be wheat,
or of some other grain. But God gives it a body as it has pleased him, and to every seed his own body". and the following discussion of the different "kinds" of "bodies" makes it sound like some whole new body. But the difference discussed here is "spiritual" versus natural; but the language he uses shows that the body is changed from one form to the other. V.36, and 42-44 clearly show that it is the same "it" that is "sown", that is "raised". The fact that they come from the graves, and do not simply "appear" by fiat in heaven where they were created totally anew, proves this.

Further, when a saint dies today, he doesn't "sleep", waiting for a resurrection, since the resurrection happened in direct linkage to the "tribulation of those days", which was the desolation of Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

...Then in v.51, he connects this to the "change" that should occur at the last trump. He does not say that that is only for those then living, and everyone after AD70 experiences this change when they die. OR, that this is just the birth of the renewed" spirit within, and those after AD70 experience it when they are born again. No, their spirits were already made alive. The only way out of that for a preterist; and I'll grant it as a possibility, though most of you don't accept it; is an actual AD70 rapture (which is actually supported by the silence on the subject of the parousia afterward, in which nobody suddenly seemed to recognize it). Still, I differ from the preterists who teach that in that they still believe (like you) that those after AD70 only experience this at death. But if it's true, then it is simply dual; as I have been saying; a special instance for that generation, but the final one is in our future.
No scripture says that physical death IS the resurrection for anyone. The dead in Christ rise after having been asleep for some time, and only those alive go straight from this life to resurrection.

 

[Eric B]

Yes, I have accepted that "mountains", et. al. departing are symbolic. of Kingdoms. But that still raises the same problem. When have all the godless kingdoms disappeared from the earth? Now, you have to spiritualize that as "they all fall after a time", but then so did they before AD70, so nothing would have changed.

 

[Warren]

Ed,

Would you PLEASE adress the following points:


1. "This generation" was the generation that rejected Jesus if we remain CONSISTENT with Lk.17:25.

2. You said: "Literal except where obviously not" - Obvious according to who?? Please tell me if Rev.6:13 is literal; it says, "And the stars of heaven fell to the earth.." (KJV)

Ed, if one star, let alones stars, fell to the earth it would be all over, since one star is many times the size of the earth. So do we have a face value, "literal" interpretation of that verse, or symbolic of something else?? Which is it.

And please don't give me the dreaded "meteor shower" view of that verse. Van Impe gives that zinger on tv all the time. Nothing implies a meteor shower! It says "the STARS of heaven fell to the earth".

Waiting for you to put up some mustard here.

Warren

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper: "Now you see why I didn't want to waste my time quoting you the scriptures you asked for."

Because your are a gnostic preterist mystic?

I knew a mystic Christian once
who hadn't sinned in
25 years. Probably by now he hasn't sinned
for 32 years. teehee

Is this the best you got Ed? Are reduced to name calling? Try answering the question. I'll type it slow this time. It shouldn't be to difficult for a man who has let everyone know he has spent 52 years studying the Bible.

Did the events, of the scriptures I provided, literally and physically occur? Yes or no.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Warren: //1. "This generation" was the generation that rejected
Jesus if we remain CONSISTENT with Lk.17:25.//

"This generation" here is literal and means the Jewish
race from the Babylonian captivity to the
rejection of Jesus (AKA: known as the inter-Testament
Age).

Warren: //2. You said: "Literal except where obviously not" - Obvious
according to who?? Please tell me if Rev.6:13 is literal;
it says, "And the stars of heaven fell to the earth.." (KJV) //

Who? the village idiot works for me, at least she wouldn't be
confused with one to whom worship is due. The first rule of
Bible understanding is to let the Bible intepert the Bible.
The second rule is to use common sense. Of course stars
of heaven don't literally fall to the earth and the earth
survive the experiance. Where does the Bible teach what the
prophetic significance of starts might be?

Grasshopper: "Did the events, of the scriptures I provided,
literally and physically occur? Yes or no."

No. You obviously need help in the debate you are loosing.
Here are some "isles" analogies from OT prophecy (Major prophets
only. The KJV1769 is quoted.

------------------------------------------

Isa 24:15 - Show Context
Wherefore glorify ye the LORD in the fires, even the name of the LORD God of Israel in the isles of the sea.

Isa 40:15 - Show Context
Behold, the nations are as a drop of a bucket, and are counted as the small dust of the balance: behold, he taketh up the isles as a very little thing.

Isa 41:5 - Show Context
The isles saw it, and feared; the ends of the earth were afraid, drew near, and came.

Isa 42:4 - Show Context
He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

Isa 42:10 - Show Context
Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise from the end of the earth, ye that go down to the sea, and all that is therein; the isles, and the inhabitants thereof.

Isa 49:1 - Show Context
Listen, O isles, unto me; and hearken, ye people, from far; The LORD hath called me from the womb; from the bowels of my mother hath he made mention of my name.

Isa 51:5 - Show Context
My righteousness is near; my salvation is gone forth, and mine arms shall judge the people; the isles shall wait upon me, and on mine arm shall they trust.

Isa 60:9 - Show Context
Surely the isles shall wait for me, and the ships of Tarshish first, to bring thy sons from far, their silver and their gold with them, unto the name of the LORD thy God, and to the Holy One of Israel, because he hath glorified thee.

Isa 66:19 - Show Context
And I will set a sign among them, and I will send those that escape of them unto the nations, to Tarshish, Pul, and Lud, that draw the bow, to Tubal, and Javan, to the isles afar off, that have not heard my fame, neither have seen my glory; and they shall declare my glory among the Gentiles.

Jer 2:10 - Show Context
For pass over the isles of Chittim, and see; and send unto Kedar, and consider diligently, and see if there be such a thing.

Jer 25:22 - Show Context
And all the kings of Tyrus, and all the kings of Zidon, and the kings of the isles which are beyond the sea,

Jer 31:10 - Show Context
Hear the word of the LORD, O ye nations, and declare it in the isles afar off, and say, He that scattered Israel will gather him, and keep him, as a shepherd doth his flock.

Eze 26:15 - Show Context
Thus saith the Lord GOD to Tyrus; Shall not the isles shake at the sound of thy fall, when the wounded cry, when the slaughter is made in the midst of thee?

Eze 26:18 - Show Context
Now shall the isles tremble in the day of thy fall; yea, the isles that are in the sea shall be troubled at thy departure.

Eze 27:3 - Show Context
And say unto Tyrus, O thou that art situate at the entry of the sea, which art a merchant of the people for many isles, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O Tyrus, thou hast said, I am of perfect beauty.

Eze 27:6 - Show Context
Of the oaks of Bashan have they made thine oars; the company of the Ashurites have made thy benches of ivory, brought out of the isles of Chittim.

Eze 27:7 - Show Context
Fine linen with broidered work from Egypt was that which thou spreadest forth to be thy sail; blue and purple from the isles of Elishah was that which covered thee.

Eze 27:15 - Show Context
The men of Dedan were thy merchants; many isles were the merchandise of thine hand: they brought thee for a present horns of ivory and ebony.

Eze 27:35 - Show Context
All the inhabitants of the isles shall be astonished at thee, and their kings shall be sore afraid, they shall be troubled in their countenance.

Eze 39:6 - Show Context
And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

------------------------------------------

BTW, i'm still waiting for your references. I have
access to all kinds of Bibles, i just need to know which one
you were using. Yes, i will check your references but franky
i don't have time this year to go searching through 24 bibles
to see where you got the exact words you used. No, i don't
take anybodies' word that that is what the Bible said.
I check quoted Bible verses.

 

[Warren]

Ed,

The Greek word in both Lk.17:25 and 21:32 is GENEA, which means "the sum total of men living at a given time". The Greek word GENOS was used for successive generations. Thus, the generation, or people of Jesus' day were the ones who rejected him, not all the generations of Israel. That generation would, acxcording to Jesus, "fill up the measure of their fathers" (Matt.23), and thus receive the punishment that was long coming.

If "this generation" did not mean "the church age" in Lk.17:25, and it definitely did not, then neither did it mean that in Lk.21:32, Matt.24:34, or Mk.13:30. Yiou must remain consistent.

Glad to see you concede that stars falling to the earth is not to be taken at face value, or "literally". But you make the "literal" mistake just one verse later in claiming that every island and mountain on earth were literally "moved out of their place". Just one verse later in the same context you do a flip flop in your treatment of the text! Try be consistent for a change, Ed. The scriptures will make much better sense to you.

Warren

 

[Grasshopper]

Grasshopper: "Did the events, of the scriptures I provided,
literally and physically occur? Yes or no."

No. You obviously need help in the debate you are loosing.

First of all it is losing not loosing.

So those verses used by the OT Prophets were clearly metaphoric and figurative. But when the NT Prophets use the same language it automatically becomes literal. On what basis do you have a right to change it?

BTW, i'm still waiting for your references. I have
access to all kinds of Bibles, i just need to know which one
you were using. Yes, i will check your references but franky
i don't have time this year to go searching through 24 bibles
to see where you got the exact words you used. No, i don't
take anybodies' word that that is what the Bible said.
I check quoted Bible verses.

Usually KJV, but it doesn't matter use any you wish.

Glad to see you concede that stars falling to the earth is not to be taken at face value, or "literally". But you make the "literal" mistake just one verse later in claiming that every island and mountain on earth were literally "moved out of their place". Just one verse later in the same context you do a flip flop in your treatment of the text! Try be consistent for a change, Ed. The scriptures will make much better sense to you.

Ed molds the Bible to fit his view. So of course he is inconsistant even within the same paragraph.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Warren: //Glad to see you concede that stars falling to the earth is not to be taken at face value, or "literally". But you make the "literal" mistake just one verse later in claiming that every island and mountain on earth were literally "moved out of their place". Just one verse later in the same context you do a flip flop in your treatment of the text! Try be consistent for a change, Ed. The scriptures will make much better sense to you.//

Sorry that i went over your head. I was being very
consistant. I believe the Bible is inerrant and literal
(where possible). It is impossible for literal stars to
fall to earth (it is possible for the earth to fall
into a star); it is quite possible for the mountains and
islands be moved (Rev 6:14) and later for
the mountains and islands to be squished (Rev 16:20).

BTW, if the mountains and islands are symbols of something,
that something has not been shown to have happened in
70AD.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Grasshopper: "Mountains are used to represent
tribes, nations and kingdoms."

And "all mountains" means one Empire?

How many nations and kingdoms
were brought with the Roman General Titus (later
Emperor) ?

 

[Warren]

Warren

Post edited because poster is using another member as the subject of the post - not the stated topic!

[ November 18, 2004, 02:03 PM: Message edited by: Dan Todd ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

Obviously not baptists?
The Doctrine of the Priesthood of the
Beliver says the individual believer is
ressponsible before God for their own
soul. Each indiviudal believer has access
to God and does not have to go through
any intermediate person or a priest.

 

[Warren]

Warren

Personal attacks will not be tolerated Warren. Stick to the Scriptures, and the topic of the thread.
DHK

[ November 18, 2004, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: DHK ]

 

[Ed Edwards]

As part of the discussion of
Peterism and "This Generation"
we had a subquestion:
what is the meaning of "mountain" in
prophecy?

Isaiah 2:2 (HCSB):
In the last days
the mountain of the Lord's house will be established
at the top of the mountains
and will be raised above the hills.
All nations will stream to it,

Grasshopper: "Mountains are used to represent tribes, nations and kingdoms."

Using the definition given makes the prophecy read:

In the last days
tribes, nations and kingdoms
of the Lord's house will be established
at the top of the tribes, nations and kingdoms
and will be raised above the hills.
All nations will stream to it,

Oops. Wouldnit make any sense????

The nations that stream to it?
Wouldn't that be a mountain? Wouldn't then the
mountains be going to the mountains?

Here in Isaiah 2:2 the "mountains" seem to refer to
being raised up

Grasshopper: "Mountains are used to represent tribes, nations and kingdoms."

Not here in Isaiah 2:2.

Revelation 6:14-17 (HCSB):

the sky separated like a scroll being rolled up;
and every mountain and island was moved from its place.
15 Then the kings of the earth, the nobles,
the military commanders, the rich, the powerful,
and every slave and free person hid in the caves
and among the rocks of the mountains.
16 And they said to the mountains and to the rocks,
"Fall on us and hide us from the face of the One seated
on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb,
17 because the great day of Their wrath has come!
And who is able to stand?"

Three uses of "mountains" here -- all three are literal
and did NOT happened on a worldwide scale in 70AD +/- 2 years.

 

[Warren]

Ed,

The Jews and scripture employed exaggerated speech, much the same way we do today. "Evryone and their brother was there tonight." Literally? No.

You make the fatal mistake of filtering the time statements through images of what YOU think the action statements should look like. If you did just the opposite the New Testament would make great sense to you, and you wouldn't have to make things up, like saying "this generation" is the last 2000 years and running, i.e., however many thousands of years it takes for Ed's images of the action statements to pan out.

Warren