Preterism remains false - Did Jesus lie? NO!

[David Kent]

He does not defend preterist doctrines.
He believes the pope is the antichrist, totally different then preterists

Preterists and Historicist understanding of some scriptures are the same, Those that I differ with them on are mainly the same as I differ from futurists on, Teaching that the book of Revelation doesn't concern the church, If it does not concern the church, the book is pointless, It was written to the churches and it concerns the churches,

 

[prophecy70]

Preterists and Historicist understanding of some scriptures are the same, Those that I differ with them on are mainly the same as I differ from futurists on, Teaching that the book of Revelation doesn't concern the church, If it does not concern the church, the book is pointless, It was written to the churches and it concerns the churches,

I do not know much about historicist views of revelation.

 

[robycop3]

Futurism was founded by the Jesuits Cardinal Belarmine and Francesco Ribera, confirmed by Priest Michael Walpole, expanded by Jesuit Manuel Lacunza, brought into Protestantism by Edward Irving who then expanded it into Dispesationalism when he first preached on it Christmas Day 1825 according to an article he wrote in his Morning Watch Magazine. Apart from the first protestant to teach futurism according to his claim, he was a Scottish Calvinist Presbyterian and a Pentecostal.

The TRUTH is, the prophesied events preterists SAY have already happened, have simply NOT yet happened! There's just NO getting by that great big ole bear of a FACT! It doesn't matter who first pointed it out; the FACT remains that it's the TRUTH!

 

[robycop3]

Where is the beast in in Daniel 9:26?
So the 483 years are past?
but the rest are not? How can it be a 490 year prophecy then?
You see a lot more in Daniel 9:26 that is written.



All that from that one verse?







wouldn't that make him a prince at the time?

Some people, mostly prets, try to make Titus the prince of that verse. I believe that prince and the 'beast'/antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition(besides Judas)/that Wicked will be all the same one man.

In a sense, Titus was a prince, as his dad was the big cheese, but he was NOT the prince of Dan. 9:26.

 

[robycop3]

He does not defend preterist doctrines.
He believes the pope is the antichrist, totally different then preterists

Another false doctrine, in & of itself. The AC will be ONE MAN.

 

[robycop3]

;

Birth of Jesus between -8 and -4 so more or less agreed on that. However the discussion on the 69 weeks is important. Scripture gives the complete answer. The seventy weeks were to run from the time Cyrus published the proclamation (given by God) It was not his decree, it was God's, Cyrus was the one to send it forth. From the going forth of that decree, to the coming of Messiah was 69 weeks. That was completed at His baptism when John the Baptist said "Behold the Lamb of God" Matt 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Jesus came as Messiah at his baptism, announced by John, God, and the disciples.
Recognised by the disciples
John 1:41 He first findeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messias, which is, being interpreted, the Christ.





Yes lets. But you miss out the most important part of the prophecy which you have ignored otherwise you could not say that.

• Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,1). to finish the transgression, 2), and to make an end of sins, 3). and to make reconciliation for iniquity, 4). and to bring in everlasting righteousness, 5). and to seal up the vision and prophecy, 6. and to anoint the most Holy.

These six points were all fulfilled in Christ, If you don't believe that tell me how each one was or will be fulfilled?

If you can answer this we can move on.

As Scripture & history show, Jesus' ministry lasted about 3.5 years, after which He was "cut off" from ministering directly any more. So, in keeping with the principle that, in that prophecy, each 'week' lasted 7 years, there are still about 3.5 years left of the 70th week. Then, Jesus shall return to "finalize" everything.

In that remaining 3.5 years, the AC shall come, the great trib shall occur, etc. That's a LONG time if one is going thru it! (Think back to the summer of 2014. Seems distant, doesn't it?)

So, it all fits together. Certainly, there's no end of sin yet, nor has the "most Holy" yet been anointed before men. But clearly, Messiah was "cut off" in the middle of the 70th week.

 

[David Kent]

In that remaining 3.5 years, the AC shall come, the great trib shall occur, etc. That's a LONG time if one is going thru it! (Think back to the summer of 2014. Seems distant, doesn't it?)

Yes there appear to be 3½ years, but The Covenenat to the Jews which Jesus confirmed, lasted another 3½ years till Peter took the Gospel to Cornelius and the covenant was no longer restricted to the Jews. It is Simple, no need to put it into the future.Just take the literal view, without adding to scripture,.

So, it all fits together. Certainly, there's no end of sin yet, nor has the "most Holy" yet been anointed before men. But clearly, Messiah was "cut off" in the middle of the 70th week.

Well there I have to disagree with you. Jesus put and end to sins by his death on the cross. For true believers their sins are forgiven and laid on Him.

"nor has the "most Holy" yet been anointed before men." Again, I must disagree with you. Messiah/Christ means anointed. He was anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism.What can be more Holy than Christ?

 

[prophecy70]

Some people, mostly prets, try to make Titus the prince of that verse. I believe that prince and the 'beast'/antichrist/man of sin/son of perdition(besides Judas)/that Wicked will be all the same one man.

In a sense, Titus was a prince, as his dad was the big cheese, but he was NOT the prince of Dan. 9:26.

So the people of prince destroyed the temple in AD 70, but this prince hasn't been on earth yet, how can the 1st century Roman army be the people of him then?

As Scripture & history show, Jesus' ministry lasted about 3.5 years, after which He was "cut off" from ministering directly any more. So, in keeping with the principle that, in that prophecy, each 'week' lasted 7 years, there are still about 3.5 years left of the 70th week. Then, Jesus shall return to "finalize" everything.

In that remaining 3.5 years, the AC shall come, the great trib shall occur, etc. That's a LONG time if one is going thru it! (Think back to the summer of 2014. Seems distant, doesn't it?)

Exactly as written doesn't include a 2000 year gap for just 3 1/2 years. Where are you getting the gap from?

 

[prophecy70]

[

Another false doctrine, in & of itself. The AC will be ONE MAN.

I do not see the Pope as the Antichrist because he does not fit this.

1st John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.
1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


But many have come
1st John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

 

[robycop3]

Yes there appear to be 3½ years, but The Covenenat to the Jews which Jesus confirmed, lasted another 3½ years till Peter took the Gospel to Cornelius and the covenant was no longer restricted to the Jews. It is Simple, no need to put it into the future.Just take the literal view, without adding to scripture,.

Close, but no cigar. Remember, Jesus saved at least one Roman, a canaanite woman, & "gentilest" of the gentiles, a Samaritan woman. There were almost always gentiles among the crowds who heard Jesus preach.

His covenant with the Jews has never ended. he was born Messiah & is still Messiah. But He Himself was "cut off" before the 'week' ended. There are still 3.5 years to be fulfilled before He returns to take over the rule of the world.

Well there I have to disagree with you. Jesus put and end to sins by his death on the cross. For true believers their sins are forgiven and laid on Him.

MMRRPP ! WRONG!

Obviously, people still sin!

"nor has the "most Holy" yet been anointed before men." Again, I must disagree with you. Messiah/Christ means anointed. He was anointed by the Holy Spirit at His baptism.What can be more Holy than Christ?

Now, ya MAY have something there, although the Scripture's wording seemsta indicate that Jesus will do the anointing. The anointER is always greater than the anointEE, & the only One greater than Jesus is His Father.

But anyway, the 70 weex is not quite finished.

 

[robycop3]

So the people of prince destroyed the temple in AD 70, but this prince hasn't been on earth yet, how can the 1st century Roman army be the people of him then?

There are a bazillion descendants of the Romans alive today, & not just Italians. The Romans had spread over almost all of what's now Europe & much of "Asia Minor" & North Africa. The AC could come from any of them.

Exactly as written doesn't include a 2000 year gap for just 3 1/2 years. Where are you getting the gap from?

By the fact that messiah was "cut off" after 3.5 years of ministry, & from Daniel 9:27.

You dudes think you've got me on the defensive? All I hafta do is remind the other readers you prets haven't presented one quark of PROOF for the veracity of your doctrine. Til you do, your credibility in your pro-pret assertions is ZILCH!

 

[robycop3]

[



I do not see the Pope as the Antichrist because he does not fit this.

I agree. The AC will be ONE MAN. No pope has come close to fulfilling the Scriptural criteria for the AC.

1st John 2:22
Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist--denying the Father and the Son.
1 John 4
1Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is already in the world.


But many have come
1st John 2:18
Dear children, this is the last hour; and as you have heard that the antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come. This is how we know it is the last hour.

And there are a bazillion antichrists out there now, from members of non-Christian religions to just plain ole sinners who believe God exists, but don't bother to worship Him or cometa Jesus for forgiveness of their sins.

But there'll be one specific AC who will be the most-evil man who will ever live. Not even Hitler or Judas was cast alive directly into the lake of fire, as this man will be, along with his false-prophet deputy.

 

[David Kent]

You dudes think you've got me on the defensive? All I hafta do is remind the other readers you prets haven't presented one quark of PROOF for the veracity of your doctrine. Til you do, your credibility in your pro-pret assertions is ZILCH!

And you futurists haven't presented one quark of PROOF for the veracity of your doctrine. And you can't because it hasn't happened and mostly never will. Trouble is with you futurists you start at the end and find something which you say has not happened yet build a doctrine on that and then work backwards and try to make everything else fit into it,

The AC as you put it is not even mentioned in Daniel 9.

And there are a bazillion antichrists out there now, from members of non-Christian religions to just plain ole sinners who believe God exists,

They are not antichrists. Antichrists "went out from us" that is the church. Antichrist means Vice Christ. The Pope is the only one who claims that title as 'Vicar of Christ'

Now, ya MAY have something there, although the Scripture's wording seemsta indicate that Jesus will do the anointing. The anointER is always greater than the anointEE, & the only One greater than Jesus is His Father.

• Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Quoted by Jesus

• Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Who anointed Jesus?

And did not Jesus then say:

• Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Who anointed Cyrus?

I would say that the same one who anointed Jesus.

Isaiah 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,

His covenant with the Jews has never ended. he was born Messiah & is still Messiah. But He Himself was "cut off" before the 'week' ended. There are still 3.5 years to be fulfilled before He returns to take over the rule of the world.

I gave the reason that the last 3½ years were fulfilled in the continuing ministry to the Jews through the Apostles. You described a couple of gentiles who were saved through Jesus personal ministry, but was not opened up the the gentiles through the preaching of Peter to Cornelius, and remember that Peter had to have symbols in a vision to convince him

Yes Jesus is still the Messiah/Christ head of the church, Jewish and gentile believers and also. The only covenant covers all believers, no unbelievers will be saved. Just one flock.

• John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

 

[David Kent]

His covenant with the Jews has never ended. he was born Messiah & is still Messiah. But He Himself was "cut off" before the 'week' ended. There are still 3.5 years to be fulfilled before He returns to take over the rule of the world.

OK so if understand you, you are accepting that half the final week has been fulfilled we just disagree about the last ½ week. So what do you think is going to happen during the last ½ week?

 

[David Kent]

• Daniel 9:24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city,
• 1). to finish the transgression,
• 2), and to make an end of sins,
• 3). and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
• 4). and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
• 5). and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
• 6). and to anoint the most Holy.

I am not sure how many of these points you answered, I think it was just number 2 where we disagreed. and number 6 which was a possible,

Shall we discuss these in order? No 1). to finish the transgression,

 

[prophecy70]

There are a bazillion descendants of the Romans alive today, & not just Italians. The Romans had spread over almost all of what's now Europe & much of "Asia Minor" & North Africa. The AC could come from any of them.





By the fact that messiah was "cut off" after 3.5 years of ministry, & from Daniel 9:27.

You dudes think you've got me on the defensive? All I hafta do is remind the other readers you prets haven't presented one quark of PROOF for the veracity of your doctrine. Til you do, your credibility in your pro-pret assertions is ZILCH!

Then its not a 490 prophecy.

Daniel says “Seventy weeks (490 years) are determined upon your people. NOT 2000+ years.

So what is exactly as written?

Your argument about proving is irrelevant because we don't believe the bible according to Robycop3.

 

[utilyan]

I Luv when I hit a nerve! {Spiritual Nerve}

That's call sadism. Its a sin to get pleasure out of the suffering of others.
Using God to do it shows how much you respect God.

No one out here wants to hurt each other in anyway. Its a lot better if you said something that leaves people thinking higher of God.

Should look up the word "Sincerity" its not just talking the talk of Self-honesty. Be true to yourself and trust God with you being true to yourself.

 

[David Kent]

That's call sadism. Its a sin to get pleasure out of the suffering of others.
Using God to do it shows how much you respect God.

No one out here wants to hurt each other in anyway. Its a lot better if you said something that leaves people thinking higher of God.

Should look up the word "Sincerity" its not just talking the talk of Self-honesty. Be true to yourself and trust God with you being true to yourself.

It seems Rant has been banned.

 

[Jerome]

It seems Rant has been banned.

An administrator on Monday said he'd been, but he's continued to post!


www.baptistboard.com/threads/rules.106958/#post-2369941

If you are asking about "Rant", he is now banned.

 

[robycop3]

And you futurists haven't presented one quark of PROOF for the veracity of your doctrine. And you can't because it hasn't happened and mostly never will.

Are you SURE, or are you merely GUESSING? Scripture sez it WILL happen, & I believe GOD'S word over that of men. I think you're just guessing, trying to defend the false "pope = beast" doctrine.

Trouble is with you futurists you start at the end and find something which you say has not happened yet build a doctrine on that and then work backwards and try to make everything else fit into it,

But SCRIPTURE sez it'll happen, and THAT'S what every Christian should go by.

The AC as you put it is not even mentioned in Daniel 9.

Yes, he IS. He's the prince of Dan. 9:26.

They are not antichrists. Antichrists "went out from us" that is the church. Antichrist means Vice Christ. The Pope is the only one who claims that title as 'Vicar of Christ'

1 John 2:22 Who is the liar? It is whoever denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a person is the antichrist—denying the Father and the Son.

Now, one can deny Him by not acknowledging Him & submitting to Him, not coming to Him for forgiveness of sins. there are many such people today, who pay Jesus "lip service", but don't OBEY Him. Thus, there are, & have been, MANY antichrists.

• Isaiah 61:1 The Spirit of the Lord GOD is upon me; because the LORD hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

Quoted by Jesus

• Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

Who anointed Jesus?

And did not Jesus then say:

• Luke 4:21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Who anointed Cyrus?

I would say that the same one who anointed Jesus.

Isaiah 45:1 Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus,


I gave the reason that the last 3½ years were fulfilled in the continuing ministry to the Jews through the Apostles. You described a couple of gentiles who were saved through Jesus personal ministry, but was not opened up the the gentiles through the preaching of Peter to Cornelius, and remember that Peter had to have symbols in a vision to convince him

Yes Jesus is still the Messiah/Christ head of the church, Jewish and gentile believers and also. The only covenant covers all believers, no unbelievers will be saved. Just one flock.

• John 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

No, Jesus was "cut off" after 3.5 years. Scripture sez nothing about the remaining years being fulfilled by the apostles.To say the apostles' ministry fulfilled the allottment of those years is quite a stretch, especially since the ministries of several of them went on much longer than 3.5 years! But Jesus DID say the great trib would be cut short lest all flesh perish. Thus, its allotted time is those 3.5 years.

Nowadays, a great deal of war could be fought in 3.5 years, as well as many other things accomplished. Life in general now goes at a much-faster pace than it did in the first century. I believe the great antichrist will rule for that amounta time & his reign will be ended very shortly after Jesus' return when he sends his army to attempt to fight Jesus. He and the false prophet will be cast alive into the lake of fire, as Scripture sez.