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Pretrib quotes before the 1800s?
- Thread starter BrianT
- Start date
KenH
Well-Known Member
I don't see anything in the quotes by Tertullian and Ambrose that could be definitively called "pretrib premill". Any of the eschatological schools could read their ideas into them. All eschatological schools teach that there is a "rapture". It is the timing of it and what happens after it that differentiates them.
Amill but galloping toward postmill,
Ken
Were it not for grace...
Amill but galloping toward postmill,
Ken
Were it not for grace...
Hi DocCas, I've been waiting for a response from you.
Also, you mention pretrib quotes from the church fathers as early as the 3rd century. Can you provide any quotes/references from them?
Thanks,
Brian
KenH
Well-Known Member
There was a lot of Chiliasm during the first three centuries of the church. But they were not of the Darbyite type of pretrib, premill variety of the past 30 years.
Of course the first few centuries of the church also produced the papacy, so I'm not sure anything past the first century would be a reliable gauge of what was taught while the apostles were alive. But, even better, we have the Bible from the Holy Spirit. It's just that on certain subjects that are bathed in symbolism Christians don't agree on what He meant when the Bible was written.
Ken
Actually, I don't believe you will find a full "Darby" position in the early church because it took a "Darby" to propound it.
All we can do is find parts and pieces as I attempted.
However, I lost my interest in this subject because it took so long to sift through all the early church writings concerning the Second Comming.
BTW, I'm not a Darby-ite myself although I would comsider myself a chiliast with Christ returning before it starts.
In a nutshell and for what its worth, I see the "tribulation" coming upon the entire world with the Church hidden and protected from the wrath of God (as Israel and the Passover) while yet present in the earth.
HankD
All we can do is find parts and pieces as I attempted.
However, I lost my interest in this subject because it took so long to sift through all the early church writings concerning the Second Comming.
BTW, I'm not a Darby-ite myself although I would comsider myself a chiliast with Christ returning before it starts.
In a nutshell and for what its worth, I see the "tribulation" coming upon the entire world with the Church hidden and protected from the wrath of God (as Israel and the Passover) while yet present in the earth.
HankD
I'm not looking for a specifically "Darby" quote, just anything where the church is raptured prior to the second coming. Parts and pieces are OK, if the context supports it. Tertullian was obviously not pretrib though.
Chiliasm is basically "premill". It does not state Christ will return before the trib, only that the 1000 year reign begins with his coming.
From your second comment about protection, it sounds like you hold a type of posttrib viewpoint. Have I understood you correctly? If so, I would be interested in hearing (in a different thread, to keep this one on topic) how you believe Christ comes before the trib, but the rapture doesn't happen until after the trib.
Brian
Generally I believe Christ comes ending the tribulation and that we (the church) protected from the wrath of God will meet Him at His coming in the air to go to the Mt of olives to witness the final put down of His enemies. Then comes the millenium.
This is by way of preference not of conviction.
HankD
This is by way of preference not of conviction.
HankD
Hi DocCas, I've been waiting for a response from you.
Also, you mention pretrib quotes from the church fathers as early as the 3rd century. Can you provide any quotes/references from them?
</font>[/QUOTE]Bump for DocCas.... Still interested and still waiting...
Are you thinking of Lacunza? There is a pretty good article on the history of dispensational development at http://www.geocities.com/lasttrumpet_2000/timeline/index.html which seems fairly complete, so I'm very interested in any pretrib support prior to 1800, especially obtaining the details of DocCas's claims - hint hint, DocCas! 
Brian
Brian
See the article in the most recent issue of BibSac. It deals with this topic.
Primitive Baptist
New Member
"And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power." (Mk. 9:1)
Wow! There are some 2,000+ year old people walking the earth as we speak!
Wow! There are some 2,000+ year old people walking the earth as we speak!
BibSca is Bibliotheca Sacra, the theological journal of Dallas Theological Seminary. The recent issues are probably not online though you should be able to view it at a good library.Originally posted by BrianT:
What's BibSac? Is it online?
Thanks.
As for the 2000 year old people walking around, Glen missed the next chapter when those standing there did see the kingdom of God in its glory, so much that they wanted to stay right there and not come back. Christ told them they had to come back though. That is the most normal explanation of that passage considering all things. However, it does not deal with pretrib quotes before the 1800s and thus is not in the purview of this thread.
ROBERTGUWAPO
Member
The reason there is a shortage of pretrib quotes before the 1800s is because:
1. THEY DO NOT EXIST.
2. If they exist, they were quotes from Catholic writers (ahhh, what a connection!).
3. Quotes after 1830 trace their source to a Margaret MacDonald who spoke in a trance while being demon-possessed (yikes, another occultic connection!).
If I said it a million times, I'm gonna say it again, there was no doctrine of a pretrib rapture from the time of Christ to the early 1800s.
Old MacDonald (and the demon inside her) originated it. If only pretribbers would examine the doctrine's historicity with an open mind...and an open heart.
1. THEY DO NOT EXIST.
2. If they exist, they were quotes from Catholic writers (ahhh, what a connection!).
3. Quotes after 1830 trace their source to a Margaret MacDonald who spoke in a trance while being demon-possessed (yikes, another occultic connection!).
If I said it a million times, I'm gonna say it again, there was no doctrine of a pretrib rapture from the time of Christ to the early 1800s.
Old MacDonald (and the demon inside her) originated it. If only pretribbers would examine the doctrine's historicity with an open mind...and an open heart.