PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[Barry Johnson]

Are you interpreting this verse to say every man is saved?

Does it say that ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Have they?

In that statement, please tell us where they say "God hath authored sin."

No it says that he doesn't. Literally though in the description it does . But they just add on at the end " but he is not the author of sin " lol Like when you catch a 3 year old who has chocolate all plastered around his mouth , and says " but i haven't touched the chocolate "

 

[AustinC]

Ok let's see if that's what it says .
32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw ALL MEN unto me.

No as you can see ,it does not .

Barry, you are openly teaching universalism by your claim. Explain how all human beings are dragged to God and saved since we know people will/are spending eternity in hell.

I stand by my interpretation of this verse. Now, you need to explain your belief in universalism.

 

[AustinC]

Does it say that ?

Does it not say that?
Explain your universalism to us.

 

[AustinC]

No it says that he doesn't. Literally though in the description it does . But they just add on at the end " but he is not the author of sin " lol Like when you catch a 3 year old who has chocolate all plastered around his mouth , and says " but i haven't touched the chocolate "

So...No. Thank you. Nowhere is God called the author of sin, except by you, the one making the claim.

 

[AustinC]

There was not a city that made peace with the people of Israel except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. They took them all in battle. For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

~ Joshua 11:19-20

Does God draw all men to him?

 

[AustinC]

Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

~ Ephesians 4:17-19

Does God draw all men to him?

 

[AustinC]

But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people. For among them are those who creep into households and capture weak women, burdened with sins and led astray by various passions, always learning and never able to arrive at a knowledge of the truth. Just as Jannes and Jambres opposed Moses, so these men also oppose the truth, men corrupted in mind and disqualified regarding the faith. But they will not get very far, for their folly will be plain to all, as was that of those two men.

~ 2 Timothy 3:1-9

Does God draw all men to him?

 

[Van]

Have they?

In that statement, please tell us where they say "God hath authored sin."

Folks, a ploy of Calvinism is to deny Calvinism. Behold the deflection

 

[AustinC]

Folks, a ploy of Calvinism is to deny Calvinism. Behold the deflection

Folks a ploy of Van is to deflect. Behold the deflection.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry, you are openly teaching universalism by your claim. Explain how all human beings are dragged to God and saved since we know people will/are spending eternity in hell.

I stand by my interpretation of this verse. Now, you need to explain your belief in universalism.

You explained by changing the verse entirely . I'm sticking to Draw as in ' attract' . Notice I'm not changing the text to suit my doctrine. Which is what Calvinism does.Just like in John 6.44 it doesn't say they came nor that they believed. The same with John 12 . People may come but are free to resist . Irresistible and previenient grace are nonsense doctrines because of the bogus T in Tulip which is faulty .

 

[Sai]

Strange bedfellows , Arminianism and Calvinism.
“Total Inability” is the belief that all humanity is born incapable of willingly coming to Christ for salvation even in light of the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the Gospel, unless God graciously works to empower the will of lost man (effectually by way of regeneration for the Calvinist, and sufficiently by way of “prevenient grace” for the Arminian).

“Prevenient grace” is simply a term for the grace of God that goes before, prepares the way, enables, assists the sinner’s repentance and faith (conversion). According to classical Calvinism this prevenient grace is always efficacious and given only to the elect through the gospel; it effects conversion. According to classical Arminianism it is an operation of the Holy Spirit that frees the sinner’s will from bondage to sin and convicts, calls, illumines and enables the sinner to respond to the gospel call with repentance and faith (conversion). Calvinists and Arminians agree, against Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, that the sinner’s will is so depraved and bound to sin that it cannot respond positively to the gospel call without supernatural grace
Roger Olson.
.
However the scriptures say different .
Dr. Olson makes the same fundamental error of our Calvinistic brethren by assuming one’s bondage to sin equals a moral incapacity to humble himself and confess this bondage in light of the truth plainly made known by the gospel. As far as I can tell, this is never taught in scripture but is merely theological baggage presumed upon the text.

In contrast to Olson, I would contend that it is by the means of the Holy Spirit inspired gospel that God directly works within man’s hearts prior to their acceptance and/or rejection of the appeal made by that gospel. In fact, I believe that is what the scripture is contending when it says:

Heb 4
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2 tim 3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16¶All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Rom 10.17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 6
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Is another work of divine grace, besides that which the gospel accomplishes, needed to enable the lost to respond?

“…these [scriptures] have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

Must we muddy the waters by suggesting that God, at some unknown point in the life of everyone, has to move in some other gracious way to enable all people to respond to the already gracious, powerful, Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel? What text necessitates such complex theological explanations? Why create a redundant theological term when the biblical word is more than sufficient? The GOSPEL is God’s enabling grace and the ONLY reason some do not have “ears to hear” is if they have become blinded or calloused against it because they have continually closed their eyes to the truth (John 12:39-41; Acts 28:23-28). There is nothing in scripture, as far as I can tell, which suggests men are born in such condition that would prevent them from responding to “the double edge sword” of the Holy Spirit’s soul piercing gospel truth (Heb. 4:12).

What say you ?

( Excerpt s taken from Soteriology 101 )

No man comes to the Son unless drawn by the Father


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Sai]

Now this I say and testify in the Lord, that you must no longer walk as the Gentiles do, in the futility of their minds. They are darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, due to their hardness of heart. They have become callous and have given themselves up to sensuality, greedy to practice every kind of impurity.

~ Ephesians 4:17-19

Does God draw all men to him?

What about reprobates


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Sai]

The naked natives lived died and went to hell without the knowledge of the Almighty’s Name


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Barry Johnson]

No man comes to the Son unless drawn by the Father


Joy unspeakable full of glory

I believe that was the case back then in the old testament, then After the cross Jesus draws .

 

[Barry Johnson]

The naked natives lived died and went to hell without the knowledge of the Almighty’s Name


Joy unspeakable full of glory

Did you know them ?

 

[Van]

Folks a ploy of Van is to deflect. Behold the deflection.

Yet more evidence Calvinism is bogus, note the personal attack, deflecting from the question, if God decreed our every sin, why is God not the author of sin?

Calvinism is based on cognitive dissonance. On the one hand, God decrees whatsoever comes to pass, but on the other hand, God does not decree our every sin. LOL

 

[Barry Johnson]

There was not a city that made peace with the people of Israel except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. They took them all in battle. For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

~ Joshua 11:19-20

Does God draw all men to him?

Something specific happening at a particular time ,what of it ? I bet you take the one account with Lydia and make that about you also . Inductive reasoning abounds with Calvinsm.

 

[Barry Johnson]

There was not a city that made peace with the people of Israel except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. They took them all in battle. For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

~ Joshua 11:19-20

Does God draw all men to him?

Did God also harden the nazis also ? How about 1066 ? Did he harden the heart of the school bully ? How about my neighbour who Always leaves cuttings on our side of the fence when hedge trimming?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Are all men, universally, dragged to Jesus, Barry?

John 6:45-47,63-65
It is written in the Prophets, ‘And they will all be taught by God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to me— not that anyone has seen the Father except he who is from God; he has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes has eternal life.

It is the Spirit who gives life; the flesh is no help at all. The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. But there are some of you who do not believe.” (For Jesus knew from the beginning who those were who did not believe, and who it was who would betray him.) And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 10:14-18,25-30
I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me, just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.” Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me,is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.”

Barry there are multiple passages that have been shared with you and you blow them off. You are responsible for ignoring them.

Because all these verse do not apply to After Acts 2 .