PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[Barry Johnson]

No man comes to the Son unless drawn by the Father


Joy unspeakable full of glory

before the cross yes .

 

[Barry Johnson]

before the cross yes .

No man gets to be saved unless he gets on the Ark . Still the same today ?

 

[AustinC]

You explained by changing the verse entirely . I'm sticking to Draw as in ' attract' . Notice I'm not changing the text to suit my doctrine. Which is what Calvinism does.Just like in John 6.44 it doesn't say they came nor that they believed. The same with John 12 . People may come but are free to resist . Irresistible and previenient grace are nonsense doctrines because of the bogus T in Tulip which is faulty .

Tell us how water is attracted to a bucket?
Honestly, Barry, you are choosing to ignore the greek word and its meaning in favor of your own opinion. That is a dangerous way to interpret scripture.

 

[George Antonios]

which denies a specific work of grace in salvation

What a dishonest accusation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Tell us how water is attracted to a bucket?
Honestly, Barry, you are choosing to ignore the greek word and its meaning in favor of your own opinion. That is a dangerous way to interpret scripture.

The word draw and the context of John 12.32 can only mean ' attract ' . This is done without changing or adding to the word of God. At best we can say the Father was drawing prior to the cross. The Holy Spirit is not said to draw anyone so were now left with John 12.32 and John 16.8 - . I know why calvinists have to focus on John 6 but its nothing to do with the inductive method.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Tell us how water is attracted to a bucket?
Honestly, Barry, you are choosing to ignore the greek word and its meaning in favor of your own opinion. That is a dangerous way to interpret scripture.

Try No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me *enables* him, and I will raise up *him who comes* at the last day.

Only those drawn by the Father may come, and I will raise up them (those that come) at the last day.

“No one can join the Army unless they have been recruited, and those who have been recruited will be trained.”

to lead” or “draw” (see Thayer’s Greek Lexicon).

Even if one were to accept the rendering of the term “helko” to mean “effectually cause” as in “to drag,” the text still does not say enough to necessitate a Calvinistic reading. One could be compelled to come to Christ while he was “down from heaven,” (v. 38) as was Judas (v. 71), without necessarily being saved. Jesus told those who came to Him that they must “count the cost to be his disciple” (Lk 14:25-34) and some who came only followed Him temporarily. One must presume that “coming to Christ” is equivalent to effectual salvation in order to support a Calvinistic interpretation.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Tell us how water is attracted to a bucket?
Honestly, Barry, you are choosing to ignore the greek word and its meaning in favor of your own opinion. That is a dangerous way to interpret scripture.

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” -John‬ ‭6:65‬ ‭.

Jesus could have clarified His meaning by saying, “This is why I told you no one can come to me unless the Father drags or makes him.” Jesus had the choice of many Greek words that could have clearly indicated that intention, but Jesus said “didomi” which is typically understood as “to grant, permit or enable.” Calvinists often use the term “enable” or “grant” as if it somehow connotes “effectual causation,” but that is simply a systematic presumption they are reading onto these terms. I can enable you to call me by giving you my phone number, but you still have to pick up the phone and dial. Since when does “to enable” necessitate “to effectually cause?”



“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Calvinists would have to take that passage to mean:

“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will *drag* all people to myself.”

To avoid a Universalist rendering of this passage Calvinists are forced to wrangle the text to suggest Jesus does not really mean to sound inclusive here, but exclusive (i.e. “I will drag a few of all kinds of people” rather than the idea Jesus clearly expresses elsewhere, “so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” -John‬ ‭17:21‬). One has to virtually ignore the entire context of John 12, and most of the New Testament, to suggest that Jesus was attempting to be exclusive to a pre-selected part rather than inclusive to the entire world.

 

[AustinC]

The word draw and the context of John 12.32 can only mean ' attract ' . This is done without changing or adding to the word of God. At best we can say the Father was drawing prior to the cross. The Holy Spirit is not said to draw anyone so were now left with John 12.32 and John 16.8 - . I know why calvinists have to focus on John 6 but its nothing to do with the inductive method.

No, it means "to drag". That is its meaning everywhere in scripture. The idea of drawing water from a well is still the idea of dragging it up from the depths.
You don't want to accept what God says so you have attempted to change the meaning of the author. Be very careful with what you are doing to God's word.

 

[AustinC]

Try No man can come to me unless the Father who sent me *enables* him, and I will raise up *him who comes* at the last day.

Only those drawn by the Father may come, and I will raise up them (those that come) at the last day.

“No one can join the Army unless they have been recruited, and those who have been recruited will be trained.”

to lead” or “draw” (see Thayer’s Greek Lexicon).

Even if one were to accept the rendering of the term “helko” to mean “effectually cause” as in “to drag,” the text still does not say enough to necessitate a Calvinistic reading. One could be compelled to come to Christ while he was “down from heaven,” (v. 38) as was Judas (v. 71), without necessarily being saved. Jesus told those who came to Him that they must “count the cost to be his disciple” (Lk 14:25-34) and some who came only followed Him temporarily. One must presume that “coming to Christ” is equivalent to effectual salvation in order to support a Calvinistic interpretation.

You are looking for a scapegoat...

 

[AustinC]

“This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” -John‬ ‭6:65‬ ‭.

Jesus could have clarified His meaning by saying, “This is why I told you no one can come to me unless the Father drags or makes him.” Jesus had the choice of many Greek words that could have clearly indicated that intention, but Jesus said “didomi” which is typically understood as “to grant, permit or enable.” Calvinists often use the term “enable” or “grant” as if it somehow connotes “effectual causation,” but that is simply a systematic presumption they are reading onto these terms. I can enable you to call me by giving you my phone number, but you still have to pick up the phone and dial. Since when does “to enable” necessitate “to effectually cause?”



“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Calvinists would have to take that passage to mean:

“And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will *drag* all people to myself.”

To avoid a Universalist rendering of this passage Calvinists are forced to wrangle the text to suggest Jesus does not really mean to sound inclusive here, but exclusive (i.e. “I will drag a few of all kinds of people” rather than the idea Jesus clearly expresses elsewhere, “so that the world may believe that you have sent me.” -John‬ ‭17:21‬). One has to virtually ignore the entire context of John 12, and most of the New Testament, to suggest that Jesus was attempting to be exclusive to a pre-selected part rather than inclusive to the entire world.

You are desperately looking for a scapegoat.

 

[Barry Johnson]

No, it means "to drag". That is its meaning everywhere in scripture. The idea of drawing water from a well is still the idea of dragging it up from the depths.
You don't want to accept what God says so you have attempted to change the meaning of the author. Be very careful with what you are doing to God's word.

Then your stuck with universalism.

 

[AustinC]

Then your stuck with universalism.

On the contrary, you are holding universalism. I hold that God drags to himself whom He wills, which is what scripture teaches.

 

[Barry Johnson]

On the contrary, you are holding universalism. I hold that God drags to himself whom He wills, which is what scripture teaches.

let's see what happens after the period where the father was drawing .
John 12:32
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

 

[Sai]

let's see what happens after the period where the father was drawing .
John 12:32
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Barry let it go man. You’re part of the elect. You’re one of us. Rejoice!


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[Scott Downey]

Barry let it go man. You’re part of the elect. You’re one of us. Rejoice!


Joy unspeakable full of glory

The elect are those who persevere to the end in belief and follow Christ as God in the flesh. People do fall away in unbelief, they once believed and don't anymore, so they were not elect even though at the time you would have thought they were elect.

If your a christian most of your life, but at the end of your life you depart from Christ and blaspheme His name saying He was just a common man and not God come in the flesh, then you were never elect (chosen by God, granted to come to Christ by the Father) ever.

If Unbelief is a sign that you are not a partaker of Christ, then belief is a sign you are in Christ.
None of this is evidence you can lose your salvation, just evidence that same people are apostates as from the beginning Christ knew those who would betray Him, which is why He said,
John 6.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

So we see that betrayers have not been granted by the Father to be saved, which is why they betrayed Christ as they were not chosen (elected)
Being granted to come to Christ comes first, without this you either wont believe or you will betray Christ.

Hebrews 3
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Barry let it go man. You’re part of the elect. You’re one of us. Rejoice!


Joy unspeakable full of glory

No i believe I'm in christ sealed by the Holy Spirit until the day of redemption..I reject Augustines philosophy and Lordship salvation . Thats what every calvinist is a part of spreading.

 

[Barry Johnson]

The elect are those who persevere to the end in belief and follow Christ as God in the flesh. People do fall away in unbelief, they once believed and don't anymore, so they were not elect even though at the time you would have thought they were elect.

If your a christian most of your life, but at the end of your life you depart from Christ and blaspheme His name saying He was just a common man and not God come in the flesh, then you were never elect (chosen by God, granted to come to Christ by the Father) ever.

If Unbelief is a sign that you are not a partaker of Christ, then belief is a sign you are in Christ.
None of this is evidence you can lose your salvation, just evidence that same people are apostates as from the beginning Christ knew those who would betray Him, which is why He said,
John 6.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

So we see that betrayers have not been granted by the Father to be saved, which is why they betrayed Christ as they were not chosen (elected)
Being granted to come to Christ comes first, without this you either wont believe or you will betray Christ.

Hebrews 3
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Yes this is the root of Lordship salvation.

 

[Sai]

The elect are those who persevere to the end in belief and follow Christ as God in the flesh. People do fall away in unbelief, they once believed and don't anymore, so they were not elect even though at the time you would have thought they were elect.

If your a christian most of your life, but at the end of your life you depart from Christ and blaspheme His name saying He was just a common man and not God come in the flesh, then you were never elect (chosen by God, granted to come to Christ by the Father) ever.

If Unbelief is a sign that you are not a partaker of Christ, then belief is a sign you are in Christ.
None of this is evidence you can lose your salvation, just evidence that same people are apostates as from the beginning Christ knew those who would betray Him, which is why He said,
John 6.
64 But there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were who did not believe, and who would betray Him.

65 And He said, “Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”

So we see that betrayers have not been granted by the Father to be saved, which is why they betrayed Christ as they were not chosen (elected)
Being granted to come to Christ comes first, without this you either wont believe or you will betray Christ.

Hebrews 3
Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus, 2 who was faithful to Him who appointed Him, as Moses also was faithful in all His house. 3 For this One has been counted worthy of more glory than Moses, inasmuch as He who built the house has more honor than the house. 4 For every house is built by someone, but He who built all things is God. 5 And Moses indeed was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which would be spoken afterward,

6 but Christ as a Son over His own house, whose house we are if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm to the end.

12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end, 15 while it is said:

18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Gobldygook


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[AustinC]

let's see what happens after the period where the father was drawing .
John 12:32
“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.”

Yep, all whom the Father drags will be dragged to Him.

God does not choose all person's, Barry.

Joshua 11:19-20
There was not a city that made peace with the people of Israel except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. They took them all in battle. For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

 

[Scott Downey]

On the contrary, you are holding universalism. I hold that God drags to himself whom He wills, which is what scripture teaches.

Yes, and Jesus is identifying also as been given all power and authority from God here when He says 'I will draw all peoples' as from all nations, 'to myself.'
John 12:32
New King James Version
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Draw means these are the ones who get saved, it is not God trying to save anyone.
Jesus draws all who will be drawn, not all as in every single living person on the earth.