PREVENIENT GRACE: AN ARMINIAN ERROR

[Yeshua1]

Yes, and Jesus is identifying also as been given all power and authority from God here when He says 'I will draw all peoples' as from all nations, 'to myself.'
John 12:32
New King James Version
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Draw means these are the ones who get saved, it is not God trying to save anyone.
Jesus draws all who will be drawn, not all as in every single living person on the earth.

My sheep hear me is what Jesus stated, not all sinners!

 

[Scott Downey]

My sheep hear me is what Jesus stated, not all sinners!

Absolutely true, dont let them take away your confidence in the LORD, without being elected you can not be saved.
Acts 18 is interesting in that Apollos was a man with an amazing ability to preach and convince others of the truths about Christ in the scriptures, yet we read that they believed by grace, not Apollos's preaching...

Ephesians 2:4 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Acts 18
25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

also does v16 proves that it is by grace that you have faith so the the promise of eternal life is made sure too all the children of God.
Yout faith is according to God's grace for you, otherwise you would have no faith.

Romans 4
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,

21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us.

 

[Yeshua1]

Absolutely true, dont let them take away your confidence in the LORD, without being elected you can not be saved.

Ephesians 2:4 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)

Acts 18
25 This man had been instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in spirit, he spoke and taught accurately the things of the Lord, though he knew only the baptism of John. 26 So he began to speak boldly in the synagogue. When Aquila and Priscilla heard him, they took him aside and explained to him the way of God more accurately. 27 And when he desired to cross to Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him; and when he arrived, he greatly helped those who had believed through grace;

also does v16 proves that it is by grace that you have faith so the the promise of eternal life is made sure too all the children of God.
Yout faith is according to God's grace for you, otherwise you would have no faith.

Romans 4
16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God,

21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us.

They have to explain what Jesus meant when he stated let those who have ears hear, as that assumes not all can
hear" him with understanding

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yep, all whom the Father drags will be dragged to Him.

God does not choose all person's, Barry.

Joshua 11:19-20
There was not a city that made peace with the people of Israel except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. They took them all in battle. For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

What about this battle?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yep, all whom the Father drags will be dragged to Him.

God does not choose all person's, Barry.

Joshua 11:19-20
There was not a city that made peace with the people of Israel except the Hivites, the inhabitants of Gibeon. They took them all in battle. For it was the Lord’s doing to harden their hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed, just as the Lord commanded Moses.

Choose all people for what ? Why are you talking about the word ' choose ' now ?

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes, and Jesus is identifying also as been given all power and authority from God here when He says 'I will draw all peoples' as from all nations, 'to myself.'
John 12:32
New King James Version
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Draw means these are the ones who get saved, it is not God trying to save anyone.
Jesus draws all who will be drawn, not all as in every single living person on the earth.

Yes that's it . Jesus was on a UN mission .

 

[Barry Johnson]

Yes, and Jesus is identifying also as been given all power and authority from God here when He says 'I will draw all peoples' as from all nations, 'to myself.'
John 12:32
New King James Version
32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself.”

Draw means these are the ones who get saved, it is not God trying to save anyone.
Jesus draws all who will be drawn, not all as in every single living person on the earth.

Jesus draws all who will be drawn ?

I notice the NKJV is selected here .
Jesus ' attracts ' .
Kjv And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 1.9
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 16 .
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, i will send him unto you .

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

 

[AustinC]

What about this battle?

If you are clueless about God's Sovereignty and his devotion of humans to destruction, I cannot help you. The text informs you.

 

[AustinC]

Choose all people for what ? Why are you talking about the word ' choose ' now ?

I cannot help you in your ignorance, Barry.

 

[AustinC]

Jesus draws all who will be drawn ?

I notice the NKJV is selected here .
Jesus ' attracts ' .
Kjv And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

John 1.9
The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe.

8He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light.

9That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 16 .
7Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, i will send him unto you .

8And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9Of sin, because they believe not on me;

10Of righteousness, because I go to my Father, and ye see me no more;

11Of judgment, because the prince of this world is judged.

Conviction of the Holy Spirit is necessary for salvation, but occurs to sinners alike, regardless of consequent faith or unbelief. It is not irresistible or unconditionally selective. (Jn. 16:7-11)

I notice you cannot accept the greek word and its meaning.

 

[Barry Johnson]

I notice you cannot accept the greek word and its meaning.

Its says ' draw ' . How difficult would it have been to say dragged?

 

[Barry Johnson]

If you are clueless about God's Sovereignty and his devotion of humans to destruction, I cannot help you. The text informs you.

I'm sure you recite the confessions every morning before breakfast .

 

[Sai]

THE LORD HAS DONE GREAT THINGS


Joy unspeakable full of glory

 

[AustinC]

Its says ' draw ' . How difficult would it have been to say dragged?

Ask yourself why Arminians want to use the English word "draw" rather than "drag" when they translate? They do this despite the fact that everywhere else they translate the greek word as drag in English.
Unfortunately, people such as yourself, do not give up their self easily...even after God has saved them by dragging them out of the fire.
Frankly, I see it as shockingly arrogant on your part. You actually will fight to demand your own supremacy over God, despite the fact that he saved you from your hopeless predicament.

 

[Barry Johnson]

Ask yourself why Arminians want to use the English word "draw" rather than "drag" when they translate? They do this despite the fact that everywhere else they translate the greek word as drag in English.
Unfortunately, people such as yourself, do not give up their self easily...even after God has saved them by dragging them out of the fire.
Frankly, I see it as shockingly arrogant on your part. You actually will fight to demand your own supremacy over God, despite the fact that he saved you from your hopeless predicament.

Which translation says ' drag ' ?

 

[LaGrange]

Strange bedfellows , Arminianism and Calvinism.
“Total Inability” is the belief that all humanity is born incapable of willingly coming to Christ for salvation even in light of the Holy Spirit wrought truth of the Gospel, unless God graciously works to empower the will of lost man (effectually by way of regeneration for the Calvinist, and sufficiently by way of “prevenient grace” for the Arminian).

“Prevenient grace” is simply a term for the grace of God that goes before, prepares the way, enables, assists the sinner’s repentance and faith (conversion). According to classical Calvinism this prevenient grace is always efficacious and given only to the elect through the gospel; it effects conversion. According to classical Arminianism it is an operation of the Holy Spirit that frees the sinner’s will from bondage to sin and convicts, calls, illumines and enables the sinner to respond to the gospel call with repentance and faith (conversion). Calvinists and Arminians agree, against Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism, that the sinner’s will is so depraved and bound to sin that it cannot respond positively to the gospel call without supernatural grace
Roger Olson.
.
However the scriptures say different .
Dr. Olson makes the same fundamental error of our Calvinistic brethren by assuming one’s bondage to sin equals a moral incapacity to humble himself and confess this bondage in light of the truth plainly made known by the gospel. As far as I can tell, this is never taught in scripture but is merely theological baggage presumed upon the text.

In contrast to Olson, I would contend that it is by the means of the Holy Spirit inspired gospel that God directly works within man’s hearts prior to their acceptance and/or rejection of the appeal made by that gospel. In fact, I believe that is what the scripture is contending when it says:

Heb 4
12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
2 tim 3
15And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

16¶All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Rom 10.17
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
John 6
63It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.

Is another work of divine grace, besides that which the gospel accomplishes, needed to enable the lost to respond?

“…these [scriptures] have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name.”

Must we muddy the waters by suggesting that God, at some unknown point in the life of everyone, has to move in some other gracious way to enable all people to respond to the already gracious, powerful, Holy Spirit wrought truth of the gospel? What text necessitates such complex theological explanations? Why create a redundant theological term when the biblical word is more than sufficient? The GOSPEL is God’s enabling grace and the ONLY reason some do not have “ears to hear” is if they have become blinded or calloused against it because they have continually closed their eyes to the truth (John 12:39-41; Acts 28:23-28). There is nothing in scripture, as far as I can tell, which suggests men are born in such condition that would prevent them from responding to “the double edge sword” of the Holy Spirit’s soul piercing gospel truth (Heb. 4:12).

What say you ?

( Excerpt s taken from Soteriology 101 )

Hi Barry,
We would likewise agree with Dr Roger Olson on this one and partially with the Calvinists on what you said so far. I heard Dr Roger Olson say one time he believed in a sort of “Half-Regeneration” prior to Justification. I agree and understand where he is coming from. I really do understand where you are coming from too. I don’t know if I should try to answer here or maybe start a new thread on Prevenient Grace. To introduce my view I definitely need to say a lot in the beginning so you get a good picture. I’m Catholic so, of course, mine is different from all of your views.

 

[AustinC]

Hi Barry,
We would likewise agree with Dr Roger Olson on this one and partially with the Calvinists on what you said so far. I heard Dr Roger Olson say one time he believed in a sort of “Half-Regeneration” prior to Justification. I agree and understand where he is coming from. I really do understand where you are coming from too. I don’t know if I should try to answer here or maybe start a new thread on Prevenient Grace. To introduce my view I definitely need to say a lot in the beginning so you get a good picture. I’m Catholic so, of course, mine is different from all of your views.

Do you mean you are Roman catholic? Or are you claiming to be the universal Church, of which all the elect make up the Catholic Church?

 

[LaGrange]

Jeremiah 31:3 where the loved ones whom God “drew to Him” were cast out of His sight (Jer. 14:16, 7:15, 15:1

Hi Barry,
Awesome! I agree. I especially like Jer 7:15.

 

[LaGrange]

Do you mean you are Roman catholic? Or are you claiming to be the universal Church, of which all the elect make up the Catholic Church?

I mean I am Roman Catholic.

 

[Alan Gross]

from: Is Prevenient Grace in the Bible? by Joseph M. Gleason – Grace Online Library

The doctrine of original sin leads to one of two conclusions: God’s Sovereignty in salvation, or an Arminian version of prevenient grace. Both Calvinists and Arminians say they believe in original sin. Adam was the father of the human race, and when he sinned, his sin was imputed to all of his children, including you and me. Adam died spiritually, and all humans ever since have come into the world dead in sin, with no righteousness whatsoever, and no thirst for God at all.

For Calvinists, the conclusion is simple. Before we can become believers, the heart of stone must be replaced with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:28). Until God works regeneration in a person’s heart, faith in Christ for salvation is impossible (John 6:44). But after God regenerates the heart, a person will certainly come to Christ and be saved (John 6:37). Whether dead in sin or alive to Christ, we always choose according to our nature.

Arminians, though, do not accept the doctrine of election. They do not believe that God is Sovereign over the salvation of people. Therefore, they do not follow the doctrine of original sin to a Calvinistic conclusion. They bypass the Scriptures that speak of God’s Sovereign control over whom He will save, and whom He will not. Instead, to fill the gap, they postulate the doctrine of “prevenient grace”, which I hope to show is without biblical warrant.

The word “prevenient” (or “preventing”) means “coming before, preceding, or antecedent.” According to Wesleyan/Arminianism, God’s prevenient grace counteracts our total deadness in sin but doesn’t totally regenerate us either. According to Arminians, God awakens us even in our unregenerate state, so that all sinners have a real “chance” to turn to God for salvation. But Arminian prevenient grace does not guarantee salvation. According to Arminians, God gives prevenient grace to everybody, hoping that some will respond and be saved, but knowing that most will choose to return to spiritual death.

The Arminian doctrine of prevenient grace fits into their overall scheme of theology and enables them to maintain the doctrine of original sin and yet reject God’s Sovereignty in salvation, therefore rejecting unconditional election as well.

But the biggest problem with Arminian “prevenient grace” is that there is no clear Biblical support for it. Not once does Scripture speak of prevenient grace that “enables” salvation without also assuring salvation. The doctrine seems nice to Arminians, but can be found nowhere in the Bible.

One of the key reasons “prevenient grace” sounds so nice to people is because it implies God’s desire for *every* person to be saved. But does the Bible teach that this is really God’s desire? If we can clearly show from Scripture that God does *not* desire the salvation of all people, then we will have succeeded in greatly weakening the unbiblical doctrine of “prevenient grace”.

con't at Is Prevenient Grace in the Bible? by Joseph M. Gleason – Grace Online Library