Prevenient Grace - Catholic View

[utilyan]

You said in so many words that you just have to be a good person and God will accept you into Heaven, your goodness showing that God has written His laws on your heart, and it really doesn't matter what faith you espouse.

By faith you mean a person's religion?. God has the final say, he knows everyone's heart. No one, by an act, can save themselves.

I say that Paul is talking about new covenant Christians in Romans chapter 2
Which if I am correct means nothing that you have said is grounded in the truth.

Then give an example of someone who is ACCUSED by their Good conscience for not following the law. Read this part slowly:

14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.

15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

You are already throwing the whole group across the finish line as being saved and keeping the law when Paul is stating that everyone has the qualifications of the starting line.

The stuff in the heart the conscience can say No buddy you are NOT doing by nature things required of the law.

If just HAVING the law was requirement then even the JEWS he is talking to are already saved.

The very point of the whole chapter is --->11For God does not show favoritism.

If I could drill one concept in your head its --->11For God does not show favoritism.

Romans 2

6God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” a 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

Paul, are you saying in so many words that you just have to be a good person and God will accept you into Heaven, your goodness showing that God has written His laws on your heart, and it really doesn't matter what faith you espouse?

You say Jesus is still hanging on the cross and the job is never done.

Jesus is Alive. Quote where I said he is still hanging on the cross?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Prevenient Grace - Catholic View

Sacraments
"Almighty God can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony. This will always be possible, because God, grace, and the soul are spiritual beings. God is not restricted to the use of material, visible symbols in dealing with men; the sacraments are not necessary in the sense that they could not have been dispensed with. But, if it be shown that God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means. This truth theologians express by saying that the sacraments are necessary, not absolutely but only hypothetically, i.e., in the supposition that if we wish to obtain a certain supernatural end we must use the supernatural means appointed for obtaining that end..."

No wonder Catholics are confused!! Their Doctrine is not scriptural.

 

[utilyan]

I am bringing this from our other arguments so it can be shown attached to the above argument


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Are you familiar with the term "shotgun fallacy"?

I'm answering questions like 3 times over. Lets acknowledge some particulars. Like Catholics don't believe they can save themselves. Jesus was on the cross once.

Its funny, this ain't my first rodeo,...you don't really want to reflect things in the worst possible light.

Thomas Aquinas he would argue the other side in the most positive way possible.........and then rip them apart.

 

[utilyan]

Sacraments
"Almighty God can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony. This will always be possible, because God, grace, and the soul are spiritual beings. God is not restricted to the use of material, visible symbols in dealing with men; the sacraments are not necessary in the sense that they could not have been dispensed with. But, if it be shown that God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means. This truth theologians express by saying that the sacraments are necessary, not absolutely but only hypothetically, i.e., in the supposition that if we wish to obtain a certain supernatural end we must use the supernatural means appointed for obtaining that end..."

No wonder Catholics are confused!! Their Doctrine is not scriptural.

So what is wrong with what is said there particularly?

You don't believe Almighty God can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony?

 

[Yeshua1]

Hi Yeshua1,
I believe it’s true we are not saved by Faith alone. This is what Prevenient Grace is all about. The Gift of Faith is a Prevenient Grace (See post #1). They are necessary but Charity has to be in your soul as well. Charity is Sanctifying Grace (Gal 5:6). I really think if you understood correctly what we believe you wouldn’t think it’s that bad. Grace runs all the way through our salvation process. If you read at least my first post most of the way through ( maybe down to where I speculate about Total Depravity) and try to see the Big Picture, then it will start making sense. I know it is way different from your view but if you try I think it will start making sense. Maybe draw on a piece of paper “1 Cor 12” on the left side and “1 Cor 13” on the right and list all the Gifts (Graces) I name in my post on each side. Basically the Gifts would be on the left and the Sacraments and infused virtues on the right. That will help you in understanding. It will at least help you to understand your view better. I can’t tell you how much I’ve learned from reading Luther and Calvin. I disagreed with some of what they said but it helped in understanding mine better. I find that you have to try real hard to understand a different view. It’s almost like learning a different language but you want to understand it correctly before you critique. There are certain things I felt I understood correctly and some things I don’t. That’s really why I’m on here. I love reading what you and the Arminians have to say about Soteriology. Thanks for being on here and sharing your Faith and letting me be on here. May God bless!

The death of Jesus paid for and atoned for ALL sins, so why would we need to have anything to add to his once and for all time sacrifice?

 

[Yeshua1]

So what is wrong with what is said there particularly?

You don't believe Almighty God can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony?

We are saved and Justified moment we receive Jesus thru faith as Lord, so why add to that?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

. Like Catholics don't believe they can save themselves

What professing Christian does?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

So what is wrong with what is said there particularly?

You don't believe Almighty God can and does give grace to men in answer to their internal aspirations and prayers without the use of any external sign or ceremony?

My reply:
[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

But, if it be shown that God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means.

Show me the scripture that says: "God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means."

Until then, I consider that statement to be false teaching and a lie of the Devil!

 

[Yeshua1]

My reply:
[Rom 3:24 KJV] 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:



Show me the scripture that says: "God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means."

Until then, I consider that statement to be false teaching and a lie of the Devil!

Rome to this very moment denies Pauline Justification, and holds to a false Gospel!

 

[Titus Tarnum]

Hi again Utilyan, (That rhymes[emoji3])

I Have interspersed my replies to your comments instead of trying to quote them individually:

Rom 2
I do have a conscience and though it may accuse or excuse me in the judgment if I have His law written on my heart by the Holy Spirit I am one of His and I won't be condemned by anything revealed at the judgement. In this chapter Paul is telling certain Jews that Gentiles who have a circumcision of the heart are Jews inwardly compared to being a Jew outwardly. If my conscience reveals that I was a good person in the eyes of man but I denied Jesus, His death and resurrection I will not be considered one of God's children and I will be doomed. This chapter doesn't say good people go to Heaven it says God's people go to Heaven. You used this chapter to attempt to say there are good people in all faiths, and what matters is a good conscience and not their theology, but it doesn't say that. This chapter is about the circumcision of the heart by God's Holy Spirit, which is the foundation of the New Covenant.

You said
By faith you mean a person's religion?. God has the final say, he knows everyone's heart. No one, by an act, can save themselves.

Then give an example of someone who is ACCUSED by their Good conscience for not following the law. Read this part slowly:

(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.)

The stuff in the heart the conscience can say No buddy you are NOT doing by nature things required of the law.

My answer;
I am an excellent example of someone with a good conscience who doesn't follow the law. I try and fail often but I am never separated from God because I have His Holy Spirit. Would you say that Good Muslims, or Jehovah Witnesses or Mayans 2,000 years ago have a circumcision of the heart (Rom 2:29) and an indwelling of the Holy Spirit because they are good people? Even if they deny the deity of Christ, the Trinity or follow after other gods?

You
If just HAVING the law was requirement then even the JEWS he is talking to are already saved.

Me
I think you are trying reference James 1:22 be doers of the Word and not hearers only?
Or another good one James 2:14 faith without works is dead- good verses;
James and Paul seemed to be at odds over the characteristics of faith but I would have to say that if the Holy Spirit was in you, you would have faith, and the Gentiles in Romans 2 had the Holy Spirit if they had a circumcised heart.
I think part of the problem is you aren't recognizing that Paul is comparing his Jewish brethren who he loved but who didn't have the Holy Spirit to Gentiles that did.

You
The very point of the whole chapter is --For God does not show favoritism

If I could drill one concept in your head its --- God does not show favoritism.

Me
Unless your heart is circumcised, then you are his favorite [emoji3]


You
Romans 2

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.

Me
(but you can't do good and deny Christ and many of the good type of people you referenced before do just that)

You
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

You
Jesus is Alive. Quote where I said he is still hanging on the cross?

Me
If you agree with the Sacrifice of Mass
you are saying that during the ceremony
the sacrifice on Calvary is made truly present on the altar
Do you not believe this?
And you said this sacrifice is going on 24/7 around the world in post 103...
Wouldn't this mean that 24/7 Christ is at Calvary in your doctrine?

May God bless you in many ways and with many good and perfect gifts[emoji3] (salutation stolen from Dave G[emoji56])

 

[utilyan]

"God has appointed external, visible ceremonies as the means by which certain graces are to be conferred on men, then in order to obtain those graces it will be necessary for men to make use of those Divinely appointed means."

Thats real easy. Isn't it obvious like when one is married that is exactly is what is happening? Or is there a spiritual marriage license that gets signed first?


Overall:


Mathew 18
18Truly I say to you, whatever you [r]bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you [t]loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

John 20
22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and *said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive the sins of any, their sins [d]have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”



I can understand from a perspective if these verses are a joke not to take anything a church provides.

Can your church forgive or retain sins?

Someone should have said hold on Jesus I can't forgive sins or retain sins because you said so.

 

[Salty]

Six hour warning
This thread will be closed no sooner thatn 8 am EDT / 5 am PDT

 

[Titus Tarnum]

I can understand from a perspective if these verses are a joke not to take anything a church provides.

Can your church forgive or retain sins?

Someone should have said hold on Jesus I can't forgive sins or retain sins because you said so.

Hey Utilyan how u been? (Another rhyme[emoji18])

I hope it's this easy, because my brother isn't saved (my fleshly one )so I'm going to forgive him, actually I always forgive him, and he'll be in heaven! I like that idea! oh wait he has to ask God for forgiveness himself, but if I ask God for forgiveness and I forgive him it's a done deal right? What if I'm mad at you and you commit a mortal sin, or even a venial sin, and I don't want to forgive you are you going to be damned? I don't think it's as easy as you say but I'll continue to think about it[emoji106][emoji3] I love you man!

 

[utilyan]

Hey Utilyan how u been? (Another rhyme[emoji18])

I hope it's this easy, because my brother isn't saved (my fleshly one )so I'm going to forgive him, actually I always forgive him, and he'll be in heaven! I like that idea! oh wait he has to ask God for forgiveness himself, but if I ask God for forgiveness and I forgive him it's a done deal right? What if I'm mad at you and you commit a mortal sin, or even a venial sin, and I don't want to forgive you are you going to be damned? I don't think it's as easy as you say but I'll continue to think about it[emoji106][emoji3] I love you man!

God always forgives. You are a minister of reconciliation.

If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

"I always forgive him, and he'll be in heaven!" God cares about him MORE than you care about him, God cares about you more than you care about you.

The church can also bind and loose. in a sense basically same thing as forgive and retain sins. It can call the shots.

The church can decide eating tacos on Tuesdays forgives sins.


Are you familiar with the "OUR FATHER" do you pray this?

Matthew 6
9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11Give us this day our daily bread.

12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen. 14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: 15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.



It wouldn't make sense to pray it if you think its one shot in conversion you never need to ask forgiveness again.

 

[Titus Tarnum]

I ask forgiveness all the time because it hurts me and God when I sin, but my sin isn't a separation from God leading to damnation because He now treats me as one of His since I have His Holy Spirit and if you think that the Holy Spirit leaves me when I sin, that's another topic [emoji3590]


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[Wesley Briggman]

Can your church forgive or retain sins?

No.

 

[utilyan]

No.

Well Jesus's Church can. Go find it. (and when you do pick me up too)

 

[utilyan]

I ask forgiveness all the time because it hurts me and God when I sin, but my sin isn't a separation from God leading to damnation because He now treats me as one of His since I have His Holy Spirit and if you think that the Holy Spirit leaves me when I sin, that's another topic [emoji3590]


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"I ask forgiveness all the time because it hurts me and God when I sin,"

You don't owe God an apology though correct? The debt was already settled at the cross.

Why is the "account" of Jesus dying on the Cross being activated? Why are you going back to (or repeating) that event?

See, I see you almost doing the same thing, just less formalized, less embellishments.

When you sin we don't see a whole new beef between you and God, were all mankind falls again and then we need a new sacrifice to cover for you. I think a lot is going to hang on that first question, Do you OWE God an apology for the sins you might do today?

 

[Wesley Briggman]

Well Jesus's Church can. Go find it. (and when you do pick me up too)

As I stated in my previous response to your question regarding my church's ability to forgive sins, I said no, it cannot. You state above that Jesus's Church can. Provide scripture to support your position.

The purpose of the local body of believers, the ekklesia, is to build-up the body and observe the ordinances - baptism, the Lord's supper.



What is the purpose of the church? | GotQuestions.org
Question: "What is the purpose of the church?"

"Answer: Acts 2:42 could be considered a purpose statement for the church: “They devoted themselves to the apostles' teaching and to the fellowship, to the breaking of bread and to prayer.” According to this verse, the purposes/activities of the church should be 1) teaching biblical doctrine, 2) providing a place of fellowship for believers, 3) observing the Lord’s supper, and 4) praying.

The church is to teach biblical doctrine so we can be grounded in our faith. Ephesians 4:14 tells us, “Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming.” The church is to be a place of fellowship, where Christians can be devoted to one another and honor one another (Romans 12:10), instruct one another (Romans 15:14), be kind and compassionate to one another (Ephesians 4:32), encourage one another (1 Thessalonians 5:11), and most importantly, love one another (1 John 3:11)..."

No where does scripture teach that the local assembly can forgive sins.

 

[Squire Robertsson]

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